Australians are investing less. And when they do, they’re investing more conservatively. But it’s not just market volatility and economic uncertainty that’s driving the change – it’s also a shift in personal circumstances.
Donahue D’Souza, Head of Investments at HSBC, talks to Jennifer Duke about HSBC’s Investor Insights Survey – including the minimum amount Australians think they need to have before they start investing.
This is general information only. You should seek professional advice before making investment decisions.
Find out more: https://fearandgreed.com.au
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Jennifer Duke: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I’m Jennifer
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Jennifer Duke: Duke.
Australians are investing less, and when they do, they’re
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Jennifer Duke: investing more conservatively. But it’s not just market volatility and
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Jennifer Duke: economic uncertainty that’s driving the change, it’s also a shift
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Jennifer Duke: in personal circumstances. These are some of the findings from
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Jennifer Duke: HSBC’s Investor Insight survey, which is in its second year.
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Jennifer Duke: Now, Sean Aylmer spoke last year to Donahue D’Souza, Head
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Jennifer Duke: of Investments at HSBC, when the survey was first conducted,
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Jennifer Duke: so it’ll be interesting to see just how much things
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Jennifer Duke: have changed. Now firstly, please remember this is general information
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Jennifer Duke: only. You should definitely seek professional advice before making any
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Jennifer Duke: investment decisions.
Don, welcome back to Fear and Greed.
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Donahue D’Souza: Hi, Jen. Good morning. Thanks for having me.
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Jennifer Duke: Good morning. So let’s go through some of these findings,
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Jennifer Duke: because they’re quite interesting. Just how many people have changed
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Jennifer Duke: their investment strategy in the last six months?
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Donahue D’Souza: Well, Jen, this statistic is quite pleasing actually, given all
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Donahue D’Souza: of the uncertainty and obviously the higher interest rates, that’s
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Donahue D’Souza: obviously, this concerns of an economic downturn. There’s been increases
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Donahue D’Souza: in energy prices, food prices, a big impact to household
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Donahue D’Souza: budgets. But it looks like investors have proved quite resilient,
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Donahue D’Souza: they’ve anticipated these changes, and 76% of the respondents polled
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Donahue D’Souza: that they had adjusted their investment strategy over the last
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Donahue D’Souza: six months, 29% had adopted a more conservative approach, 40%
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Donahue D’Souza: had gone a little bit less risky to a more balanced
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Donahue D’Souza: approach, and clearly there was possibly a younger segment that
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Donahue D’Souza: saw an opportunity, and about 10% of the respondents there
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Donahue D’Souza: moved to a little bit more of an aggressive stance.
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Jennifer Duke: That actually really surprises me, because we are hearing, obviously
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Jennifer Duke: in the cost of living crisis, that younger people are
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Jennifer Duke: being hit more. Were you surprised by that stat as well?
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Donahue D’Souza: They do tend to contradict each other. I expect that
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Donahue D’Souza: whilst the cost of living has gone up, Gen Y
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Donahue D’Souza: and Gen Z have a much longer timeframe to achieve
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Donahue D’Souza: their financial goals and investments, and therefore they’re able to
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Donahue D’Souza: ride out a little bit more volatility and uncertainty and
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Donahue D’Souza: take on that additional risk in order to get that
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Donahue D’Souza: return. So it’s not surprising that they’ve gone a little
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Donahue D’Souza: bit more aggressive.
As far as impacts to their household
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Donahue D’Souza: budget, it’s potential they may have adjusted other parts of
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Donahue D’Souza: their expenditure to accommodate their investments or their regular investments.
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Donahue D’Souza: They may have even moved back home to save rent.
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Jennifer Duke: I’m curious about these people who are shifting towards the
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Jennifer Duke: conservative strategy, so that’s sort of slightly the older demographics
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Jennifer Duke: in your survey. What does that conservative strategy maybe look
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Jennifer Duke: like? What are some of those assets that they’re pivoting towards?
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Donahue D’Souza: Yeah, great question, Jen. I think with the uncertainty, it’s
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Donahue D’Souza: getting harder and harder to pick a individual security and
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Donahue D’Souza: try to get that performance. And then there’s the maintenance
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Donahue D’Souza: of individual stock holdings as well. The fact that you
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Donahue D’Souza: need to review them regularly, particularly amid heightened volatility. So
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Donahue D’Souza: particularly amongst the older investors, we’re seeing a pivot towards
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Donahue D’Souza: fixed interest investments, and if they’re not prepared to pick
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Donahue D’Souza: individual fixed interest investments and bonds, then we’re seeing a
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Donahue D’Souza: pivot towards exchange- traded funds, which effectively can give you
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Donahue D’Souza: access to a broad range of asset classes, geographies, industry.
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Donahue D’Souza: So the key benefit there is diversification.
And we’re also
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Donahue D’Souza: seeing a pivot towards managed funds, where like an exchange-
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Donahue D’Souza: traded fund, but it does have the benefit of an
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Donahue D’Souza: expertise of a professional fund manager that’s actively managing that
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Donahue D’Souza: portfolio. So there, if things turn a little bit sour,
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Donahue D’Souza: then the fund manager will actively manage that portfolio, de-
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Donahue D’Souza: risk that portfolio, maybe deploy some hedging strategies, and where
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Donahue D’Souza: there’s an opportunity, they can actually dial up exposure and
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Donahue D’Souza: give you that return.
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Jennifer Duke: Definitely makes sense as to why people are heading towards
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Jennifer Duke: those sorts of assets and strategies and I suppose assistance.
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Jennifer Duke: I’m curious about how you see this playing out for
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Jennifer Duke: the rest of the year, particularly as there’s now forecast
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Jennifer Duke: that we might’ve reached that interest rate peak.
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Donahue D’Souza: Yeah. Another great question, Jenna. Yes we have, in Australia.
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Donahue D’Souza: There’s a lot of eyes overseas as well, in the
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Donahue D’Souza: US, and obviously broader Europe. And whilst seemingly it seems
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Donahue D’Souza: that we might’ve reached the peak in the interest rate
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Donahue D’Souza: cycle, I think the concern now is shifting towards what
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Donahue D’Souza: the impact of those aggressive rate hikes is going to
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Donahue D’Souza: have on the economy overall, and obviously corporate profitability and
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Donahue D’Souza: corporate earnings. And that’s effectively going to impact the share
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Donahue D’Souza: market and share market performance.
So I don’t think investor
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Donahue D’Souza: sentiment and confidence is going to improve anytime soon, and
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Donahue D’Souza: I dare say that that will probably stay in a
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Donahue D’Souza: balanced, more conservative stance, until the dial changes and we
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Donahue D’Souza: start to see an improvement and more positive signs in forward-
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Donahue D’Souza: looking economic data rather than backward- looking economic data.
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Jennifer Duke: Stay with me, Don, we’ll be back in a minute.
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Jennifer Duke: I’m speaking to Donahue D’Souza, Head of Investments at HSBC.
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Jennifer Duke: I’m particularly curious about one statistic that was in the
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Jennifer Duke: survey, and it found that there was a 7% decline
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Jennifer Duke: in female investors since 2022, and that was comparing to
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Jennifer Duke: a 4% decline among male investors. Do you have any
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Jennifer Duke: thoughts on why we’re seeing that split between the genders?
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Donahue D’Souza: Yeah, Jen, that was a little bit disappointing. I know
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Donahue D’Souza: the industry as a whole has been working really hard
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Donahue D’Souza: to, one, address the pay gap situation, but also to
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Donahue D’Souza: empower our female investor to make more proactive financial decisions
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Donahue D’Souza: and eventually achieve financial independence. So that was a little
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Donahue D’Souza: disappointing, but not altogether unexpected, given that there was an
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Donahue D’Souza: overall decline because of the circumstances in the periphery. However,
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Donahue D’Souza: you would anticipate that, coming off a lower base, you
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Donahue D’Souza: would expect the female investor base to be a little
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Donahue D’Souza: bit more impacted than the male investors. But one thing
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Donahue D’Souza: that I do take heart from is the fact that
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Donahue D’Souza: there is still an ongoing contribution, and it may well
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Donahue D’Souza: be that female investors have cut back on discretionary investments.
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Donahue D’Souza: As long as they continue to work and they’re making
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Donahue D’Souza: indirect investments via super, I think that’s still a good
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Donahue D’Souza: thing.
But obviously women are more likely, as proven by
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Donahue D’Souza: the stats, that they’re more likely to take career breaks
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Donahue D’Souza: or reduce their working hours, whether it is carer’s to
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Donahue D’Souza: look after elderly parents, or parental leave to look after
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Donahue D’Souza: children. All of these things are going to impact their
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Donahue D’Souza: superannuation contributions and the way in which they can retire
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Donahue D’Souza: in the end. So it’s good that the survey’s polling
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Donahue D’Souza: this out, but there are a lot of distractions right
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Donahue D’Souza: now. So we’re living in a post- COVID environment, savings
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Donahue D’Souza: during that COVID environment’s funding quite a few things, and
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Donahue D’Souza: in particularly have gone towards rebalancing that household budget amid
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Donahue D’Souza: the higher mortgage, higher rents, higher food prices, higher energy
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Donahue D’Souza: prices, but we’re also seeing the travel bug back there,
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Donahue D’Souza: so that might be polluting the statistics a little bit.
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Jennifer Duke: That’s fair enough. The holiday habits that we have. There
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Jennifer Duke: was also this big divide in the survey between men
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Jennifer Duke: and women in their knowledge on how to invest outside
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Jennifer Duke: of Australia. So I think it was 53% of men
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Jennifer Duke: compared to 35% of women are aware of how to
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Jennifer Duke: do that. Does that add further weight to this argument
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Jennifer Duke: for a greater focus needed on financial investment literacy education?
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Donahue D’Souza: Ah, definitely. And that’s why we run the poll, is,
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Donahue D’Souza: one, to help the industry and help each other to
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Donahue D’Souza: identify what are the areas that we need to focus
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Donahue D’Souza: on and where this education is needed. I know that
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Donahue D’Souza: many of the issues and the exchanges as a whole
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Donahue D’Souza: have spent a lot of time focusing particularly on ETFs
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Donahue D’Souza: and managed funds, because you are able to get that
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Donahue D’Souza: broad diversified exposure and it’s quite easy to get overseas exposure. It
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Donahue D’Souza: may come down to an aversion to risk, and naturally
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Donahue D’Souza: when you’re looking at investing overseas, you are taking on
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Donahue D’Souza: additional risks. So potentially there might be something there where
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Donahue D’Souza: if you are risk- averse, then you’re much more comfortable
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Donahue D’Souza: staying within Australia.
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Jennifer Duke: And of course we don’t want to make sort of
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Jennifer Duke: widespread assumptions, but is this suggesting that female investors tend
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Jennifer Duke: to be more risk- averse?
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Donahue D’Souza: I think if you read through some of the ABS
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Donahue D’Souza: statistics, the fact that women are more likely to take
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Donahue D’Souza: breaks, they’re effectively got less contributions, they’re effectively working less,
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Donahue D’Souza: and therefore if they’ve got a smaller amount of capital
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Donahue D’Souza: that they need to manage and obviously achieve some sort
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Donahue D’Souza: of comfort in retirement, then you could anticipate that, ” Okay,
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Donahue D’Souza: I might be a little bit less aggressive in my
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Donahue D’Souza: investment approach, because I’ve got more to lose.”
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Jennifer Duke: I think that’s a very fair comment. And I also
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Jennifer Duke: thought it was really interesting in the survey that Australians think
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Jennifer Duke: that they need, it’s about $15, 200, if I’m getting that
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Jennifer Duke: right, as the minimum amount to get started investing. Now,
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Jennifer Duke: we’re not an investment podcast, and we always encourage people
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Jennifer Duke: to get professional advice as you’ve heard, but surely a
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Jennifer Duke: figure like that is a bit of a barrier to
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Jennifer Duke: someone’s mindset, particularly for those younger generations in thinking, ” Yes,
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Jennifer Duke: I have enough, I can get out there, I can
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Jennifer Duke: do some investments.” What are your thoughts on it?
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Donahue D’Souza: Yeah, the poll revealed, I mean, it was an average
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Donahue D’Souza: and it was the perceived in minimum investment amount was
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Donahue D’Souza: higher than last year, I think 14, 800 last year, 15, 200 this year.
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Donahue D’Souza: It hasn’t moved substantially, but you’re right. There’ve been multiple apps
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Donahue D’Souza: and providers that have come out that are effectively appealing
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Donahue D’Souza: to the millennials and Gen Z to invest steadily and
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Donahue D’Souza: regularly over time, and obviously the costs are quite slow.
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Donahue D’Souza: Speaking of costs though, I think there’s been plenty of
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Donahue D’Souza: media focus on it. So whilst you can invest a
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Donahue D’Souza: small amount, you still have to pay brokerage of some
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Donahue D’Souza: description. And when you’re investing a small amount, in percentage
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Donahue D’Souza: terms it can add up, and therefore the return you
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Donahue D’Souza: need to achieve on that minimum investment just to cover
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Donahue D’Souza: your brokerage or your initial investment cost can be substantial.
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Donahue D’Souza: So what we’re also seeing is because there’s been a
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Donahue D’Souza: pivot towards the more diversified exposures through ETFs and managed
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Donahue D’Souza: funds, possibly through managed funds, because some of the managed
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Donahue D’Souza: funds may have a minimum, that may be reflected and
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Donahue D’Souza: captured in this survey, and that’s why I think when
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Donahue D’Souza: you’re pivoting towards an actively managed investment, because you prefer
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Donahue D’Souza: to have a professional supervise and have oversight over that
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Donahue D’Souza: investment, some of those managed funds have a 5,000 or a $10, 000 minimum.
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Donahue D’Souza: So that, I suspect, is what’s been captured in this survey.
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Jennifer Duke: That makes sense. And one more question, just because since
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Jennifer Duke: I’m curious, if we were to do this interview again
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Jennifer Duke: in six months time with another survey result, what figure
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Jennifer Duke: would you like to see improvement on most?
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Donahue D’Souza: I think I’d definitely like to see improvement in the
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Donahue D’Souza: female participation. I’d like to see that segment a lot
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Donahue D’Souza: more involved. And there are, there’s plenty of female financial
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Donahue D’Souza: advisors, female financial commentators, so some really good role models
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Donahue D’Souza: out there as well and the industry as a whole
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Donahue D’Souza: is working really hard.
One thing I would like to
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Donahue D’Souza: call out though is that in this survey, which we
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Donahue D’Souza: haven’t talked about yet, but I’m going to drop it
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Donahue D’Souza: in now, is that the survey, the respondents show that
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Donahue D’Souza: in the last year there must have been a surge
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Donahue D’Souza: in the number of social media platforms and social media
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Donahue D’Souza: commentators in the finance world. I think it got a
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Donahue D’Souza: little bit crowded and a little bit too noisy, because
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Donahue D’Souza: the survey showed that they’re pulling away from social media
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Donahue D’Souza: and they’re going to the usual, reliable podcasts, financial websites,
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Donahue D’Souza: issuers, and fund managers, and the traditional sources of information,
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Donahue D’Souza: where they would get their economical financial updates.
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Jennifer Duke: That’s fascinating. That’s truly some food for thought, I think.
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Jennifer Duke: Don, thank you so much for talking to Fear and Greed.
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Donahue D’Souza: Thank you so much, Jen. Thank you for having me.
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Jennifer Duke: And that was Don D’Souza, Head of Investments at HSBC
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Jennifer Duke: Australia. This is the Fear and Greed Business Interview. Remember,
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Jennifer Duke: this is general information only, and you should seek professional
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Jennifer Duke: advice before making any investment decisions. Join us every morning
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Jennifer Duke: for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia’s best
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Jennifer Duke: business podcast. I’m Jennifer Duke, Economics Correspondent at Capital Brief.
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Jennifer Duke: Have a great day.