AUSTRALIA’S MOST POPULAR BUSINESS PODCAST

Fear & Greed, Fear and Greed

Friday 16 June 2023

A surge in jobs is set to trigger more rate rises. 

  • Opposition Leader Peter Dutton suspends Liberal Senator David Van from the party room after further allegations about his behaviour
  • A record year for population growth
  • And the New Zealand economy is officially in recession

Plus don’t miss the latest episode of How Do They Afford That?

This week it’s all about buying a car – everything you need to know about car loans and leases. Get the episode from APPLE, SPOTIFY, or anywhere you listen to podcasts.

Find out more: https://fearandgreed.com.au

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Michael Thompson: A surge in jobs is set to trigger more rate

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Michael Thompson: rises. Opposition leader Peter Dutton suspends, Liberal Senator David Van

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Michael Thompson: from the party room after further allegations about his behavior,

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Michael Thompson: and a record year for population growth. It’s Friday the

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Michael Thompson: 16th of June 2023. Welcome to Fear & Greed, Australia’s most

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Michael Thompson: popular business podcast. I’m Michael Thompson and good morning, Sean Aylmer.

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Sean Aylmer: Good morning, Michael.

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Michael Thompson: Sean, I’m really excited about today’s interview. It is a

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Michael Thompson: really, really good, interesting chat.

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Sean Aylmer: As they always are. As they always are.

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Michael Thompson: I know, but I feel like I almost need to

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Michael Thompson: separate this one and say this is particularly exciting because

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Michael Thompson: you’re talking with Jye Smith who is the managing director

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Michael Thompson: of brand agency Doublestar Co.

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Sean Aylmer: Yes. We are talking about brands and the importance of

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Sean Aylmer: brands, what they convey, how to get a good one.

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Sean Aylmer: I ask him to help Fear & Greed out in terms

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Sean Aylmer: of how we might convey ourselves in a brand sense.

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Sean Aylmer: It was a very… How do I put this?

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Michael Thompson: Enlightening?

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Sean Aylmer: Enlightening, but it was actually in plain English. So often

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Sean Aylmer: when you talk to some marketing types, there’s a lot

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Sean Aylmer: of words that I’ve struggled to understand whereas in this

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Sean Aylmer: case, Jye was able to put it in very plain

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Sean Aylmer: English about what brands mean. He uses a great example

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Sean Aylmer: about National Geographic, actually. Knows a lot about National Geographic

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Sean Aylmer: and why that brand works. So just a really interesting chat.

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Michael Thompson: Yeah, and at no point did he refer to it

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Michael Thompson: as going on a brand journey.

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Sean Aylmer: Yeah, the word journey was not mentioned. In fact, journey

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Sean Aylmer: should just be banned full stop.

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Michael Thompson: Let’s ban it.

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Sean Aylmer: Yeah.

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Michael Thompson: From this moment, journey shall never be mentioned on Fear & Greed.

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Sean Aylmer: Okay. Done.

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Michael Thompson: All right. Now that is coming up a little bit

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Michael Thompson: later on. It is definitely worth a listen. I think

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Michael Thompson: you probably got that message by now. The main story

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Michael Thompson: though this morning, Sean, is a big one. The strongest

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Michael Thompson: jobs growth in almost a year has pushed the unemployment

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Michael Thompson: rate lower and increased the likelihood of more rate rises

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Michael Thompson: in coming months.

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Sean Aylmer: Yes, the labor market has certainly been on quite the

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Sean Aylmer: journey. Employment rose by 75, 900 in May, way higher than

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Sean Aylmer: expected, demonstrating that the labor market remains strong. Sorry Michael,

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Sean Aylmer: I couldn’t help myself.

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Michael Thompson: You really couldn’t resist, could you? Lasted what, 12 seconds?

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Michael Thompson: Which is a record.

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Sean Aylmer: Okay, sorry. Well let’s get back to the business of

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Sean Aylmer: telling the news here. So employment rose by 75, 900

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Sean Aylmer: in May, way higher than expected, demonstrating that the labor

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Sean Aylmer: market remains very strong. There are now more than 1

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Sean Aylmer: million more people employed compared to pre- pandemic. Full- time

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Sean Aylmer: jobs rose last month by almost 62,000 and part- time roles

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Sean Aylmer: were up 14, 000.
Jobs growth has now averaged about 0.

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Sean Aylmer: 3% each month over the past three months. Not quite

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Sean Aylmer: as high as it was, but still very solid. The

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Sean Aylmer: unemployment rate fell to 3.6% from 3. 7%. The participation rate, the number

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Sean Aylmer: of people looking for jobs, hit a record high, confirming

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Sean Aylmer: that the labor market is very, very tight. The labor

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Sean Aylmer: force figures are lagging, indicators, of course, backward looking. The

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Sean Aylmer: forward indicators, things like job advertisements and business hiring intentions,

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Sean Aylmer: suggests the employment market will slow, but it seems it

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Sean Aylmer: will remain robust for some time yet.

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Michael Thompson: Oh, I know this is high risk, Sean, but I’m

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Michael Thompson: again asking for an economics lesson here.

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Sean Aylmer: Oh, God. Heck.

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Michael Thompson: Sometimes when you say these things, I’m listening and it’s

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Michael Thompson: like my brain is trying to race to keep up

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Michael Thompson: with you. So I just want to make sense of all

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Michael Thompson: of this. This was a lot higher than was expected.

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Michael Thompson: You mentioned that. Why have they come in so much higher?

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Sean Aylmer: Well, labor force figures are actually very volatile. So the

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Sean Aylmer: expectation was about 17 or 18, 000 new jobs. This has come

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Sean Aylmer: in at 76,000 new jobs. No one is… I mean, maybe

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Sean Aylmer: people have a model to predict this, but it’s kind

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Sean Aylmer: of a bit thumb in the air and see what

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Sean Aylmer: happens. And particularly employment numbers, because they go up and

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Sean Aylmer: down and they get revised, that type of thing.
That’s

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Sean Aylmer: kind of why I mentioned the three months, the 0. 3% each

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Sean Aylmer: in the past three months, because it is actually better

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Sean Aylmer: to look at the trend rather than the monthly numbers. Even

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Sean Aylmer: looking at the trend, the market probably isn’t as hot

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Sean Aylmer: as it was, but it’s still pretty hot. So I

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Sean Aylmer: don’t know whether I’ve really answered your question there because

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Sean Aylmer: it’s a fair question, but actually getting an exact number,

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Sean Aylmer: I mean, very few people ever actually pick the exact

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Sean Aylmer: number, so you’re better looking at the trend.

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Michael Thompson: Okay. But all of the other information then that we

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Michael Thompson: have seen, you mentioned then that we had business hiring

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Michael Thompson: intentions, but we’ve also seen that the broader business confidence,

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Michael Thompson: which was dropping.

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Sean Aylmer: Yeah.

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Michael Thompson: You would expect then that there would not be as

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Michael Thompson: many people being employed in coming months based on that.

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Sean Aylmer: You tend to get jobs growth anyway, but you are

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Sean Aylmer: right in as much as the pace of jobs growth

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Sean Aylmer: won’t be as great when you don’t have as many

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Sean Aylmer: job ads out there or hiring intentions are falling. So

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Sean Aylmer: yes, that’s correct.

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Michael Thompson: Okay. All right. Look, can you actually hear the cogs

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Michael Thompson: turning just trying to process this? Because every month we

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Michael Thompson: go through this and every month there’s this new set

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Michael Thompson: of data and I think I was actually genuinely a

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Michael Thompson: bit surprised by how many jobs there were. And look, if

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Michael Thompson: I’m surprised, Sean, then the next logical question is what

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Michael Thompson: will the Reserve Bank think?

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Sean Aylmer: I bet they were surprised. I mean, they’ll be worried about wages

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Sean Aylmer: growth. Low unemployment tends to push up wages and there’s

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Sean Aylmer: already plenty of pressure in that department given the recent

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Sean Aylmer: Fair Work Commission decision on award wages. Wages put pressure

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Sean Aylmer: on inflation. It’s as simple as that. So more rate

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Sean Aylmer: hikes are likely with economists forecasting somewhere between one and

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Sean Aylmer: four 25 basis point hikes over the rest of this

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Sean Aylmer: year.
Now I think most people think that there’ll be

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Sean Aylmer: one next month. This is the Economist, at least. Whether

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Sean Aylmer: they think there’ll be a lot more really depends on

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Sean Aylmer: the individual. The most recent economic growth figures show that

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Sean Aylmer: the economy is definitely slowing and the fear is that

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Sean Aylmer: more rate rises pushes the economy into a recession. That

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Sean Aylmer: is definitely a possibility. Mind you, while people have jobs

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Sean Aylmer: that seems less likely.

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Michael Thompson: Okay. How did local markets, Sean, respond to the news yesterday?

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Sean Aylmer: Well, bond markets are the ones that move mostly on

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Sean Aylmer: interest rates and they immediately sold off, which basically pushes

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Sean Aylmer: market interest rates higher. If you look at that, traders

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Sean Aylmer: now think there’s a 60 to 65% chance of a 25 basis

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Sean Aylmer: point hike in July. Market economists think the likelihood is

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Sean Aylmer: greater. The Aussie dollar pushback above 68 US cents, Michael.

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Sean Aylmer: It had fallen earlier in the morning after the US

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Sean Aylmer: Federal Reserve kept rates on hold as expected, but the

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Sean Aylmer: US Fed was much less clear about whether there will

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Sean Aylmer: be any further rate hikes. The labor force numbers, when

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Sean Aylmer: they came out, that pushed the Aussie dollar higher.
On

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Sean Aylmer: the share market, the S&P/ASX 200 spiked in early trading, fell

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Sean Aylmer: ahead of the 11:30 AM announcement yesterday, and then trended

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Sean Aylmer: higher during the afternoon to finish up just a touch to 7,

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Sean Aylmer: 175 points. Healthcare stocks were the worst performers while tech

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Sean Aylmer: stocks were the best. Not a huge amount going on,

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Sean Aylmer: really. The coal companies did well, notwithstanding some negative commentary

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Sean Aylmer: around the place about prices. New Hope, Coronado, Global Resources,

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Sean Aylmer: and Whitehaven were all sharply higher. Interesting one, Australia’s largest

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Sean Aylmer: rail freight operator Aurizon rallied to its highest level in

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Sean Aylmer: four months after it was upgraded by brokers. Its share

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Sean Aylmer: price ended more than 4% higher. The best in the

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Sean Aylmer: day was insurer IAG. It was up 4. 6%.
One

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Sean Aylmer: I just want to mention, property funds house Charter Hall.

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Sean Aylmer: It reported a 2. 8% fall in property values across

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Sean Aylmer: its $ 72 billion real estate empire. Now, the company said

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Sean Aylmer: that about 98% of all its properties have been independently

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Sean Aylmer: valued. We’ve been talking about this, particularly around the superfunds,

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Sean Aylmer: the idea that fund managers, superfunds, people like Charter Hall,

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Sean Aylmer: need to make sure that on their books, the value

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Sean Aylmer: of the assets, the buildings, are appropriate as opposed to

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Sean Aylmer: inflated because prices have come down during COVID. Anyway, that’s

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Sean Aylmer: what Charter Hall did yesterday. It said that its property

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Sean Aylmer: values were down only 3%.

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Michael Thompson: So that actually provides a bit of reassurance then.

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Sean Aylmer: It does, and I mean, I’m not here to question

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Sean Aylmer: Charter Hall. One of the big issues when you revalue

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Sean Aylmer: is you base it off recent sales and the challenging

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Sean Aylmer: commercial properties that no one’s selling, because prices are lower

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Sean Aylmer: so why would you sell? You don’t need to. So

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Sean Aylmer: the most recent sales might not be last week. It

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Sean Aylmer: actually might be last year or two years ago. So

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Sean Aylmer: there’s still question marks around that.

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Michael Thompson: God, I’m learning a lot today, Sean.

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Sean Aylmer: I hope I’m right.

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Michael Thompson: Me too. Well either way, you’re taking us on a

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Michael Thompson: journey, that’s for sure. International markets. What else is going on?

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Sean Aylmer: Well, it was all about the US Fed’s decision to

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Sean Aylmer: pause on interest rates. The first pause in 15 months.

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Sean Aylmer: That wasn’t unexpected, but market watches said the commentary was

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Sean Aylmer: less supportive of further rate rises. Chair Jerome Powell said

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Sean Aylmer: it may make sense for rates to move higher at

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Sean Aylmer: a more moderate pace. He said while speed was important

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Sean Aylmer: last year, it’s now reasonable to go slower and there

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Sean Aylmer: are benefits to moderating the pace of those hikes. Now the

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Sean Aylmer: US labor market, like the Aussie labor market, remains strong,

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Sean Aylmer: something Powell noted, but there’s just a bit less clear

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Sean Aylmer: the trajectory of rate rises in the US.
Meanwhile, China’s

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Sean Aylmer: economic recovery weakened last month as growth in industrial output

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Sean Aylmer: and retail sales slowed. It came as authorities took further

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Sean Aylmer: steps to lower interest rates in an effort to boost

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Sean Aylmer: the world’s second- largest economy. And while we’re on it,

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Sean Aylmer: New Zealand. It’s officially in recession with a 0. 1%

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Sean Aylmer: contraction in growth last quarter. That followed a 0. 7%

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Sean Aylmer: contraction the December quarter. Of course, two consecutive quarters of

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Sean Aylmer: negative growth makes a recession. New Zealand led the world

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Sean Aylmer: in raising rates to combat the post- pandemic inflation wave.

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Sean Aylmer: Now it’s leading the world in heading into a recession.

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Sean Aylmer: And just finally on commodity markets, oil is unchanged, gold

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Sean Aylmer: is lower, and iron ore prices remain strong.

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Michael Thompson: Sean, I think you need a cup of tea.

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Sean Aylmer: Oh, I do.

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Michael Thompson: That’s a big start to the show.

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Sean Aylmer: Sure is.

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Michael Thompson: We’ll be back in a moment with the rest of

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Michael Thompson: the day’s business news.
Sean, opposition leader Peter Dutton, yesterday

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Michael Thompson: suspended Liberal Senator David Van from the party room after

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Michael Thompson: further allegations about his behavior emerged. That followed Wednesday’s claim

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Michael Thompson: in parliament by Independent Senator Lidia Thorpe that he had

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Michael Thompson: harassed and sexually assaulted her, claims she later withdrew and

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Michael Thompson: Van rejected saying they were a lie.

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Sean Aylmer: Peter Dutton yesterday afternoon said there had been further allegations

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Sean Aylmer: about Senator Van and Dutton had advised him of his

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Sean Aylmer: decision that he should no longer sit in the Liberal

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Sean Aylmer: party room. It means he’s on the crossbenches. Senator Van

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Sean Aylmer: has strenuously denied Senator Thorpe’s allegations, but agreed to leave

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Sean Aylmer: the party room to minimize damage to the opposition. Dutton

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Sean Aylmer: himself said that the decision for him to leave the

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Sean Aylmer: party room or ask him to leave the party room

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Sean Aylmer: certainly bore no consequence in terms of what his view

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Sean Aylmer: of Senator Van and the allegations were.
Yesterday, Senator Thorpe

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Sean Aylmer: in the Senate spoke of how she had faced sexual

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Sean Aylmer: comments and had been inappropriately propositioned in corridors and stairwells

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Sean Aylmer: of Parliament House in a very emotional speech. She said Senator

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Sean Aylmer: Van was among a number of men in Parliament who

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Sean Aylmer: made her feel unsafe in the building. She said, and

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Sean Aylmer: I quote, ” I experienced sexual comments and was inappropriately propositioned

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Sean Aylmer: by powerful men. One man followed me and cornered me

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Sean Aylmer: in a stairwell. There are different understandings of what amounts

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Sean Aylmer: to sexual assault and what I experienced has been being

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Sean Aylmer: followed, aggressively propositioned, and inappropriately touched.”

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Michael Thompson: All right. Very serious story there, Sean. Now, Australia experienced

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Michael Thompson: the biggest jump in population ever last year following the

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Michael Thompson: end of COVID, and despite a rise in the number

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Michael Thompson: of deaths and a drop off in births.

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Sean Aylmer: The country’s population expanded by almost 500,000 people last year,

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Sean Aylmer: taking the total number to 26.27 million according to the

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Sean Aylmer: Bureau of Statistics. Now, migration was the main reason for

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Sean Aylmer: the rise. Australia recorded a net gain of 387,700 people.

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Sean Aylmer: Almost 620,000 people migrated to Australia while 233,000 left the

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Sean Aylmer: country. High immigration numbers are expected to continue as more

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Sean Aylmer: students come into the country.
The overall population growth was 1.

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Sean Aylmer: 93%. That was the highest since 2008. Well, the actual

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Sean Aylmer: number, 497,756, was the highest annual intake ever. There was

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Sean Aylmer: also a surge in deaths last year up from 165,000 pre-

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Sean Aylmer: COVID to 191, 000. The ABS put that in part down

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Sean Aylmer: to COVID- related illnesses, particularly the increase. And the number

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Sean Aylmer: of births was down 14, 500 on the year before

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Sean Aylmer: to just under 301, 000.

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Michael Thompson: Okay, I’m just doing the maths here, Sean. So this

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Michael Thompson: is for 2022, the calendar year.

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Sean Aylmer: Yes.

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Michael Thompson: Which means then that 2021, which was a lockdown year,

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Michael Thompson: a lot of lockdowns still in that year-

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Sean Aylmer: I know where you’re going here. I know where you’re

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Sean Aylmer: going. I don’t think you should, but go.

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Michael Thompson: That it wasn’t the lockdown baby boom that many people expected.

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Sean Aylmer: No.

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Michael Thompson: Which means, clearly there was too much good stuff on

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Michael Thompson: Netflix instead.

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Sean Aylmer: That was it. Or the actual reason, people were worried

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Sean Aylmer: about the economy. People don’t have kids when they’re worried

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Sean Aylmer: about the economy.

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Michael Thompson: I definitely prefer my reason.

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Sean Aylmer: Yes, okay. Netflix. Ted Lasso, come on down.

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Michael Thompson: Goodness me. All right. Sean, Australia’s richest person, Gina Rinehart,

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Michael Thompson: has done a deal to buy up to a 51%

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Michael Thompson: stake in the Mount Bevan lithium project in Western Australia.

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Michael Thompson: That’s a project that targets supplying Indian buyers.

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Sean Aylmer: Rinehart held a one- on- one meeting with Narendra Modi,

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Sean Aylmer: the prime minister of India, last month when he was

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Sean Aylmer: out visiting, and looks like it may well pay dividends.

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Sean Aylmer: Thus far, Rinehart hasn’t really involved herself in lithium mining.

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Sean Aylmer: Mostly it’s about iron ore and agricultural property for Gina,

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Sean Aylmer: but she has now bought a small stake in the

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Sean Aylmer: Mount Bevan project and yesterday that mine did a deal

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Sean Aylmer: to sell most of the lithium it produces to India

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Sean Aylmer: to boost that country’s critical mineral supply chain. Rinehart has

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Sean Aylmer: the option to take her stake to 51% if certain

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Sean Aylmer: exploration and development milestones are hit. It’s going to be

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Sean Aylmer: really interesting just to see how this one develops.

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Michael Thompson: Home Affairs and Cybersecurity Minister Clare O’Neill and Prime Minister

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Michael Thompson: Anthony Albanese yesterday announced a new bill, Sean, to block

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Michael Thompson: a proposed second Russian embassy. This is interesting.

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Sean Aylmer: Yes. O’Neil said the bill identifies a specific piece of

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Sean Aylmer: land in Canberra which currently has a lease agreement between

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Sean Aylmer: the National Capital Authority and the Russian Federation. Now, the

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Sean Aylmer: bill terminates that lease agreement.
Back in May, a federal

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Sean Aylmer: court decision found that the National Capital Authority’s eviction of

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Sean Aylmer: the Russian Federation from the site was invalid, hence we

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Sean Aylmer: have legislation about it. O’Neil said the principal problem with

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Sean Aylmer: the proposed second Russian embassy in Canberra is its location

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Sean Aylmer: directly adjacent to Parliament House, and the government has received

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Sean Aylmer: advice that this is a threat to national security.

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Michael Thompson: Australian Vintage, the maker of top- selling wine McGuigan, has

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Michael Thompson: warned its annual profit as set to almost halve as

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Michael Thompson: it faces a big jump in cost that it hasn’t

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Michael Thompson: been able to pass on to consumers.

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Sean Aylmer: I’m not sure whether to be happy or sad about this story. I

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Sean Aylmer: mean, I want Australian Vintage to do well, but I

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Sean Aylmer: like the fact that we’re not paying more for wine.

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Michael Thompson: You’re always finding a silver lining.

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Sean Aylmer: That’s right. That’s right. It’s the latest discretionary retailer to

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Sean Aylmer: demonstrate a slowdown in the spending habits of consumers. Australian

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Sean Aylmer: Vintage yesterday said lower vintage and throughput caused partly by

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Sean Aylmer: poor weather conditions would force write- offs at its wineries.

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Sean Aylmer: As corporate debt remains high at the company, Australian Vintage

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Sean Aylmer: will also suspend future dividend payments.
Now last month, Treasury

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Sean Aylmer: Wines, maker of Penfolds, Wolf Blass, and Lindemans issued a

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Sean Aylmer: profit warning off the back of slower sales and weaker

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Sean Aylmer: consumer sentiment. We’ve seen plenty of other retailers do so

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Sean Aylmer: recently. Domino’s Pizza, Michael Hill Jewelers, Maggie Beer Foods, Universal

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Sean Aylmer: Store, Baby Bunting, even West Farmers.
So the top of

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Sean Aylmer: this show, we talked about very strong labor market potential

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Sean Aylmer: for rising interest rates. The real economy on the street,

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Sean Aylmer: there is plenty of evidence that there’s a big slowdown

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Sean Aylmer: going on.

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Michael Thompson: And finally, Sean, the liquidators of collapsed builder Porter Davis

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Michael Thompson: Homes Group says that unsecured creditors owed more than $ 71

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Michael Thompson: million. Unlikely to be paid, but the Commonwealth Bank will

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Michael Thompson: probably get the almost $ 33 million that it’s owed.

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Sean Aylmer: The findings mean that tradies and subbies that were hit by the company

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Sean Aylmer: failure will be left empty- handed and not all customers

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Sean Aylmer: will be covered as most of the funds in the $

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Sean Aylmer: 147 million collapse are not likely to be recovered. The Melbourne-

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Sean Aylmer: based home builder fell into the hands of liquidators grant

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Sean Aylmer: Thornton in March. There was about 1, 700 projects in limbo

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Sean Aylmer: in Victoria and Queensland. It had signed another 779 contracts,

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Sean Aylmer: according to a report in the Australian. The Porter Davis

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Sean Aylmer: home building empire is now being broken up, with builders

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Sean Aylmer: taking on jobs they believe can be turned into profitable

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Sean Aylmer: work at a time when the industry faces a crisis

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Sean Aylmer: from rising costs and financial pressure.

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Michael Thompson: All right, now turning to international news, Sean. Big story.

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Michael Thompson: Former British Prime Minister Boris Johnson will be found to

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Michael Thompson: have committed multiple contempts of parliament in a report by

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Michael Thompson: MPs into his conduct as prime minister during the Partygate

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Michael Thompson: scandal. We talked a lot about that at the time.

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Sean Aylmer: Sure did. According to a report in the Financial Times,

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Sean Aylmer: Johnson had made a number of contempts of parliament, including

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Sean Aylmer: being found to have misled MPs and statements he made

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Sean Aylmer: in the comments about Downing Street parties held during Coronavirus

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Sean Aylmer: lockdowns. The committee has been looking into whether Johnson deliberately

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Sean Aylmer: misled parliament after stating while prime minister that COVID-19 rules

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Sean Aylmer: were followed at all times. Now, of course, that followed

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Sean Aylmer: media reports of Number 10 gatherings held during the pandemic.

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Sean Aylmer: Johnson announced on Friday he was immediately stepping down as

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Sean Aylmer: a Conservative MP. He accused the cross- party committee of

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Sean Aylmer: behaving like a kangaroo court engaged in a political hit

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Sean Aylmer: job against him. While the committee does have power to

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Sean Aylmer: recommend sanctions against MPs, including suspension from Commons, Johnson’s decision

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Sean Aylmer: to quit pretty much preempts such an outcome.

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Michael Thompson: All right. Now up next is the Fear & Greed Daily

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Michael Thompson: Interview with Jye Smith from brand agency Doublestar Co.

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Sean Aylmer: All about brands, what they can do for you, how

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Sean Aylmer: you can develop a good one particularly, and all in

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Sean Aylmer: plain English, as we said at the top of the

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Sean Aylmer: show. Well worth a listen, this one.

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Michael Thompson: Yeah, sure is. It’s coming up next in the Fear &

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Michael Thompson: Greed playlist on your podcast platform or at fearandgreed.com.au. Very

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Michael Thompson: quickly, Sean, remember yesterday we were talking about Maggie Beer

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Michael Thompson: and her expansion into garden implements and all that kind

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Michael Thompson: of thing.

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Sean Aylmer: Mm- hmm.

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Michael Thompson: And you went on for a bit about how much

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Michael Thompson: you love wooden spoons.

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Sean Aylmer: Went on for a bit.

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Michael Thompson: Go on.

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Sean Aylmer: Yes, yes, yes.

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Michael Thompson: And about how wooden spoons have never changed, and I

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Michael Thompson: said they’re outdated and that silicon tongs and things are

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Michael Thompson: just so much more better.

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Sean Aylmer: More better. Yeah.

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Michael Thompson: Yeah. Well, Wendy wrote to us via LinkedIn and she said, ”

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Michael Thompson: Hi guys, just listened to today’s episode and you mentioned

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Michael Thompson: that silicon tools in the kitchen are the best. But

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Michael Thompson: from personal experience, I counter your comment.” I feel like

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Michael Thompson: this is very much targeted towards me. ” I have had

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Michael Thompson: silicon tongs washed in the dishwasher, and after a few

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Michael Thompson: times of washing, you’ll smell the detergent used on your

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Michael Thompson: tongs and also on the food that you use the

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Michael Thompson: tongs to grab with.” So therefore, I suppose I withdraw

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Michael Thompson: my comments that silicon tongs and silicon kitchen implements are

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Michael Thompson: better than wooden spoons.

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Sean Aylmer: Well, yeah, I mean, I don’t want to say I was right, but Michael,

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Sean Aylmer: I was right.

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Michael Thompson: Yes. Well, 2, 000 years of history for the wooden

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Michael Thompson: spoon clearly isn’t wrong. All right, thank you very much, Sean.

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Sean Aylmer: Thank you, Michael.

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Michael Thompson: It’s Friday the 16th of June, 2023. Make sure you’re

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Michael Thompson: following the podcast and join us online on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter,

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Michael Thompson: and Facebook. I’m Michael Thompson and that was Fear & Greed.

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Michael Thompson: Have a great day.