AUSTRALIA’S MOST POPULAR BUSINESS PODCAST

Fear & Greed, Fear and Greed

This is Fear and Greed – The Week Ahead, where Sean Aylmer and Stephen Koukoulas discuss the major events, reports and releases that provide insight into the economy this week (with a look back at the events of last week too).

Find out more: https://fearandgreed.com.au

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

1
00:00:08,010 –> 00:00:10,648
Jennifer Duke: Welcome to Fear and Greed – The Week Ahead. I’m Jennifer

2
00:00:10,650 –> 00:00:13,770
Jennifer Duke: Duke and I’m joined by economist Stephen Koukoulas. You’ll find

3
00:00:13,770 –> 00:00:16,499
Jennifer Duke: him at thekouk. com, that’s T- H- E- K- O- U- K.

4
00:00:16,590 –> 00:00:20,459
Jennifer Duke: com, and on X using the handle TheKouk. Stephen, good morning.

5
00:00:21,060 –> 00:00:21,779
Stephen Koukoulas: Good morning, Jen.

6
00:00:22,710 –> 00:00:25,020
Jennifer Duke: First of all, last week there was a little bit

7
00:00:25,020 –> 00:00:27,149
Jennifer Duke: of data out, quite a lot of talk. Can you

8
00:00:27,150 –> 00:00:27,900
Jennifer Duke: talk us through it?

9
00:00:28,710 –> 00:00:32,130
Stephen Koukoulas: Yeah, look, the highlight, I think, was the monthly inflation

10
00:00:32,190 –> 00:00:35,219
Stephen Koukoulas: number for the month of July. Came in lower than

11
00:00:35,219 –> 00:00:40,470
Stephen Koukoulas: market expectations, confirming that we’re getting this deceleration in inflation.

12
00:00:40,860 –> 00:00:44,130
Stephen Koukoulas: So from the peak that we saw in December 2022,

13
00:00:44,610 –> 00:00:48,540
Stephen Koukoulas: which hit 8. 4% in monthly terms… Gosh, that was

14
00:00:48,540 –> 00:00:51,119
Stephen Koukoulas: a real problem on inflation. But now here we are

15
00:00:51,120 –> 00:00:54,059
Stephen Koukoulas: in July with the July data showing that the annual

16
00:00:54,059 –> 00:00:58,290
Stephen Koukoulas: inflation rate’s eased to 4. 9%. So we’ve lost 3.

17
00:00:58,530 –> 00:01:02,550
Stephen Koukoulas: 5 percentage points off the annual inflation rate. And again,

18
00:01:03,210 –> 00:01:05,340
Stephen Koukoulas: I don’t mean to torture the data or manipulate it

19
00:01:05,340 –> 00:01:08,130
Stephen Koukoulas: too badly, but if you look at what has happened

20
00:01:08,130 –> 00:01:12,298
Stephen Koukoulas: to the monthly run rate since January, so the seven

21
00:01:12,300 –> 00:01:15,660
Stephen Koukoulas: months since January, and you annualize that, so divide it

22
00:01:16,050 –> 00:01:18,990
Stephen Koukoulas: by seven, multiply it by 12, you’re getting an inflation

23
00:01:18,990 –> 00:01:22,709
Stephen Koukoulas: rate that’s around about 3%.
And so it’s sort of

24
00:01:22,709 –> 00:01:26,908
Stephen Koukoulas: suggesting to me that the inflation momentum has certainly come

25
00:01:26,910 –> 00:01:29,490
Stephen Koukoulas: off the ball, that we’re heading towards the target. Yeah,

26
00:01:29,490 –> 00:01:32,580
Stephen Koukoulas: the economy’s weakening. Last week we saw building approvals down

27
00:01:32,580 –> 00:01:36,839
Stephen Koukoulas: again. So I think we’re not going to be seeing

28
00:01:36,840 –> 00:01:39,209
Stephen Koukoulas: a lot of new construction activity in the near term,

29
00:01:39,389 –> 00:01:42,509
Stephen Koukoulas: is one of the other concerns on the economy. Retail

30
00:01:42,509 –> 00:01:45,959
Stephen Koukoulas: sales, they were moderate after a couple of falls. So

31
00:01:46,260 –> 00:01:48,450
Stephen Koukoulas: the economy’s sort of muddling along, which says to me

32
00:01:48,450 –> 00:01:50,850
Stephen Koukoulas: that the inflation rate’s going to be falling, continue to

33
00:01:50,850 –> 00:01:54,360
Stephen Koukoulas: fall through the remainder of this year and into 2024,

34
00:01:54,360 –> 00:01:56,370
Stephen Koukoulas: even though things like petrol prices have jumped a bit

35
00:01:56,370 –> 00:01:57,810
Stephen Koukoulas: in the last few weeks.

36
00:01:58,320 –> 00:02:01,230
Jennifer Duke: That sounds like really, really good news. And it seems

37
00:02:01,230 –> 00:02:03,059
Jennifer Duke: like there’s quite a bit happening in housing as well.

38
00:02:03,059 –> 00:02:03,930
Jennifer Duke: Can you talk us through that?

39
00:02:05,070 –> 00:02:08,940
Stephen Koukoulas: Yes. Well, the CoreLogic numbers came out on Friday for

40
00:02:08,940 –> 00:02:11,910
Stephen Koukoulas: the month of August, they have that comprehensive set of

41
00:02:11,910 –> 00:02:14,940
Stephen Koukoulas: numbers. And as we were able to deduce from their

42
00:02:14,940 –> 00:02:19,230
Stephen Koukoulas: high frequency daily data, house prices rose 0. 8% — this

43
00:02:19,230 –> 00:02:22,919
Stephen Koukoulas: is a nationwide figure — 0. 8% in the month. And

44
00:02:22,919 –> 00:02:26,940
Stephen Koukoulas: that’s six consecutive months of increases. From the low point

45
00:02:26,940 –> 00:02:30,000
Stephen Koukoulas: that was recorded in February, they’ve increased by around about

46
00:02:30,000 –> 00:02:34,589
Stephen Koukoulas: 5%. So roughly half of that 9% drop that we

47
00:02:34,590 –> 00:02:38,400
Stephen Koukoulas: saw in 2022 and very early 2023 has been reversed

48
00:02:38,400 –> 00:02:42,629
Stephen Koukoulas: and the momentum still seems to be pretty solid.
Those supply

49
00:02:42,629 –> 00:02:45,869
Stephen Koukoulas: and demand dynamics are still in place. We’ve got still

50
00:02:46,050 –> 00:02:48,090
Stephen Koukoulas: strong population growth, and as we alluded to with the

51
00:02:48,090 –> 00:02:51,660
Stephen Koukoulas: building approval numbers, we’re not building many houses. So good old-

52
00:02:51,660 –> 00:02:55,410
Stephen Koukoulas: fashioned supply and demand are just continuing to dominate the

53
00:02:55,410 –> 00:02:57,960
Stephen Koukoulas: interest rate hikes that we’ve been seeing. So prices still

54
00:02:57,960 –> 00:03:00,870
Stephen Koukoulas: going up and not really showing a lot of signs

55
00:03:00,900 –> 00:03:02,489
Stephen Koukoulas: that they’re losing momentum.

56
00:03:02,910 –> 00:03:05,490
Jennifer Duke: I’m really amazed at how resilient the housing market’s been,

57
00:03:05,490 –> 00:03:07,470
Jennifer Duke: actually, through this cycle. I don’t know if you feel

58
00:03:07,470 –> 00:03:08,070
Jennifer Duke: the same way.

59
00:03:08,340 –> 00:03:11,969
Stephen Koukoulas: Yes. Look, I’m surprised at how strong it’s been. I

60
00:03:11,969 –> 00:03:14,400
Stephen Koukoulas: was never in the camp that prices would dropped 20 or 30%.

61
00:03:14,400 –> 00:03:16,920
Stephen Koukoulas: I didn’t think that was realistic, it’s never happened. And

62
00:03:17,609 –> 00:03:22,048
Stephen Koukoulas: again, somewhat apparent that post- COVID we would be reopening

63
00:03:22,050 –> 00:03:24,450
Stephen Koukoulas: the borders and the like. So it was always going

64
00:03:24,450 –> 00:03:26,520
Stephen Koukoulas: to be a weak period, but this rebound is something

65
00:03:26,520 –> 00:03:29,520
Stephen Koukoulas: that I think’s been much stronger than anyone, even the

66
00:03:29,520 –> 00:03:34,109
Stephen Koukoulas: most optimistic house price bull would’ve been thinking. And again,

67
00:03:34,770 –> 00:03:36,960
Stephen Koukoulas: it’s one of these ones, obviously there’s an intergenerational issue

68
00:03:37,230 –> 00:03:40,619
Stephen Koukoulas: or people who really are being squeezed out of buying

69
00:03:40,620 –> 00:03:42,450
Stephen Koukoulas: the property market, and of course it’s tightest in the

70
00:03:42,450 –> 00:03:45,540
Stephen Koukoulas: housing market. It’s showing up in rents, which are still increasing

71
00:03:45,540 –> 00:03:47,099
Stephen Koukoulas: at a rapid pace.
That was one thing in the

72
00:03:47,099 –> 00:03:51,090
Stephen Koukoulas: inflation numbers last week that was still accelerating, dwelling rents.

73
00:03:51,389 –> 00:03:54,150
Stephen Koukoulas: So we’ve got this issue that’s coming through. However, as

74
00:03:54,150 –> 00:03:56,760
Stephen Koukoulas: the Reserve Bank have noted many times in the past,

75
00:03:57,210 –> 00:03:59,160
Stephen Koukoulas: there is a wealth effect from housing. So if house

76
00:03:59,160 –> 00:04:02,549
Stephen Koukoulas: prices go up, on average — this is not everybody — but

77
00:04:02,550 –> 00:04:05,969
Stephen Koukoulas: on average Australians are wealthier, and when they’re feeling wealthier

78
00:04:05,969 –> 00:04:09,179
Stephen Koukoulas: they tend to spend more. So again, as we’ve discussed

79
00:04:09,179 –> 00:04:14,010
Stephen Koukoulas: many times, the interlinkages on housing, the economy, interest rates, population

80
00:04:14,010 –> 00:04:16,320
Stephen Koukoulas: growth are many and varied.

81
00:04:17,130 –> 00:04:18,928
Jennifer Duke: I think that’s a great point. And we’ve obviously got

82
00:04:18,930 –> 00:04:22,230
Jennifer Duke: the Reserve Bank meeting this week. Can you give us

83
00:04:22,230 –> 00:04:23,610
Jennifer Duke: a bit of a sense of what you’re thinking they

84
00:04:23,610 –> 00:04:24,030
Jennifer Duke: might do?

85
00:04:24,839 –> 00:04:27,719
Stephen Koukoulas: Yes. I think this is a relatively straightforward one, or

86
00:04:27,719 –> 00:04:30,330
Stephen Koukoulas: I hope it is. No change tomorrow when the Reserve

87
00:04:30,330 –> 00:04:32,880
Stephen Koukoulas: Bank board meet. It’s the last meeting for Dr. Lowe

88
00:04:32,880 –> 00:04:35,729
Stephen Koukoulas: as governor before Michele Bullock takes over in the middle

89
00:04:35,730 –> 00:04:39,178
Stephen Koukoulas: of September, so roughly two weeks away. No change, and

90
00:04:39,178 –> 00:04:41,070
Stephen Koukoulas: for the reasons that we’ve just discussed, I suspect. And

91
00:04:41,070 –> 00:04:44,279
Stephen Koukoulas: that’s because inflation is tracking lower and we are yet

92
00:04:44,279 –> 00:04:47,099
Stephen Koukoulas: to feel the full impact of the 400 points of

93
00:04:47,100 –> 00:04:48,720
Stephen Koukoulas: rate hikes.
That’s the other thing, again, that the Reserve

94
00:04:48,720 –> 00:04:50,580
Stephen Koukoulas: Bank’s been talking about. They’ve delivered a lot of rate

95
00:04:50,580 –> 00:04:54,180
Stephen Koukoulas: hikes. And while there’s a sort of a knee- jerk reaction, ”

96
00:04:54,180 –> 00:04:56,490
Stephen Koukoulas: Oh, they hiked yesterday,” and there’s an impact on consumer

97
00:04:56,490 –> 00:04:59,460
Stephen Koukoulas: sentiment, the actual effect on the economy, as we know,

98
00:04:59,460 –> 00:05:03,479
Stephen Koukoulas: takes… Well, they call it a long and variable lag.

99
00:05:03,480 –> 00:05:05,819
Stephen Koukoulas: And I think that’s sort of code for somewhere between

100
00:05:05,820 –> 00:05:08,640
Stephen Koukoulas: six and 12 and 18 months before it really hits the economy.

101
00:05:08,640 –> 00:05:11,310
Stephen Koukoulas: And so we had four rate hikes in the first half

102
00:05:11,310 –> 00:05:15,389
Stephen Koukoulas: of 2023. Here we are in September. The effect is

103
00:05:15,389 –> 00:05:17,969
Stephen Koukoulas: still to come through.
So for the RBA tomorrow, no

104
00:05:17,969 –> 00:05:21,479
Stephen Koukoulas: change. They’ll still probably sound a little bit hawkish. They’ll

105
00:05:21,480 –> 00:05:25,080
Stephen Koukoulas: be expressing a few concerns. The inflation at 4. 9,

106
00:05:25,080 –> 00:05:28,529
Stephen Koukoulas: yes, in headline terms it’s too high. So they’ll kill

107
00:05:28,529 –> 00:05:32,160
Stephen Koukoulas: any discussion of rate cuts, and I agree, there’s no

108
00:05:32,160 –> 00:05:35,940
Stephen Koukoulas: chance of rate cuts anytime soon. But they’ll probably say

109
00:05:35,940 –> 00:05:37,409
Stephen Koukoulas: that, yeah, we need to keep a steady hand at

110
00:05:37,410 –> 00:05:40,920
Stephen Koukoulas: that narrow path to lower inflation while maintaining a good

111
00:05:40,920 –> 00:05:44,010
Stephen Koukoulas: labor market. We’re on that path still, but we just

112
00:05:44,010 –> 00:05:47,220
Stephen Koukoulas: need to be careful not to over- tighten anymore. So

113
00:05:47,550 –> 00:05:49,409
Stephen Koukoulas: no change from our friends at the RBA.

114
00:05:50,490 –> 00:05:52,919
Jennifer Duke: And Dr. Lowe’s also due to give a speech, I

115
00:05:53,040 –> 00:05:56,640
Jennifer Duke: believe it’s called his final remarks, at the Anika Foundation.

116
00:05:56,910 –> 00:05:59,430
Jennifer Duke: What do you think he might remark on in his

117
00:05:59,430 –> 00:06:00,360
Jennifer Duke: final speech?

118
00:06:00,930 –> 00:06:05,099
Stephen Koukoulas: Look, if I was Dr Lowe, I would be acknowledging

119
00:06:05,100 –> 00:06:07,080
Stephen Koukoulas: some of the errors that have been made, of course.

120
00:06:07,410 –> 00:06:10,800
Stephen Koukoulas: You can’t not do that if you’ve been presiding over

121
00:06:11,160 –> 00:06:14,428
Stephen Koukoulas: very low inflation, very high inflation and giving… What do

122
00:06:14,428 –> 00:06:16,829
Stephen Koukoulas: we call it? Misleading guidance on where rates are going.

123
00:06:16,889 –> 00:06:19,140
Stephen Koukoulas: But having said that, I would also point to the

124
00:06:19,140 –> 00:06:21,900
Stephen Koukoulas: fact that here we are, we’ve got through a pandemic

125
00:06:21,990 –> 00:06:27,960
Stephen Koukoulas: with reasonably good economic outcomes. Here we are discussing the

126
00:06:27,960 –> 00:06:31,649
Stephen Koukoulas: unemployment rate at a three point something level. And that’s

127
00:06:31,650 –> 00:06:34,470
Stephen Koukoulas: a wonderful legacy. Full employment, we’ve sort of got it,

128
00:06:34,980 –> 00:06:38,039
Stephen Koukoulas: and it occurred without wages breaking out. Wages have lifted too,

129
00:06:38,100 –> 00:06:40,500
Stephen Koukoulas: that’s another good thing that he could emphasize, but that

130
00:06:40,500 –> 00:06:42,330
Stephen Koukoulas: they’re not too hot, if you know what I mean.

131
00:06:43,800 –> 00:06:45,990
Stephen Koukoulas: The scorecard, if you like, on the economy, while there

132
00:06:45,990 –> 00:06:48,779
Stephen Koukoulas: are a few question marks and a few little hiccups

133
00:06:48,779 –> 00:06:51,900
Stephen Koukoulas: and things and a few unpleasantries in the scorecard on

134
00:06:51,900 –> 00:06:57,180
Stephen Koukoulas: the economy, full employment’s a mighty good thing. Moderate wage growth

135
00:06:57,180 –> 00:07:00,450
Stephen Koukoulas: that’s sustainable in that 3. 5 to 4% level, which

136
00:07:00,450 –> 00:07:03,178
Stephen Koukoulas: appears to be where wages growth is being maintained at

137
00:07:03,178 –> 00:07:06,089
Stephen Koukoulas: the moment, is a good thing as well. So I’d

138
00:07:06,089 –> 00:07:10,289
Stephen Koukoulas: expect him to be reasonably positive whilst acknowledging a couple

139
00:07:10,289 –> 00:07:12,299
Stephen Koukoulas: of missteps in recent years.

140
00:07:13,050 –> 00:07:14,550
Jennifer Duke: And what else do we have to look forward to

141
00:07:14,550 –> 00:07:15,360
Jennifer Duke: for the rest of the week?

142
00:07:15,960 –> 00:07:18,239
Stephen Koukoulas: The other big one is on Wednesday we get the

143
00:07:18,240 –> 00:07:22,860
Stephen Koukoulas: June quarter GDP results, and everybody loves the GDP results. It’s going

144
00:07:22,860 –> 00:07:25,980
Stephen Koukoulas: to be a soft number. I guess that feeds back

145
00:07:25,980 –> 00:07:29,129
Stephen Koukoulas: into the RBA decision. They obviously meet before the GDP

146
00:07:29,129 –> 00:07:31,590
Stephen Koukoulas: number comes out and, as I understand it, they don’t

147
00:07:31,590 –> 00:07:34,260
Stephen Koukoulas: actually have it before them when they discuss interest rate

148
00:07:34,260 –> 00:07:35,400
Stephen Koukoulas: settings, as I understand it.

149
00:07:35,400 –> 00:07:35,489
Jennifer Duke: Oh, that’s awkward.

150
00:07:35,490 –> 00:07:39,389
Stephen Koukoulas: Yes. It’s a bit of a funny one. But it’s probably going to be

151
00:07:39,389 –> 00:07:40,830
Stephen Koukoulas: a pretty soft number. We know a lot of the

152
00:07:40,830 –> 00:07:44,759
Stephen Koukoulas: partial indicators. Retail sales went backwards. We had good CapEx

153
00:07:44,759 –> 00:07:48,330
Stephen Koukoulas: numbers last week too. Business investment, which was going to

154
00:07:48,330 –> 00:07:50,130
Stephen Koukoulas: be adding a bit of a floor to bottom line

155
00:07:50,130 –> 00:07:54,030
Stephen Koukoulas: GDP. Net exports are probably neither here nor there. So

156
00:07:54,390 –> 00:07:59,039
Stephen Koukoulas: GDP probably around about 0.4, 0. 5, quarter on quarter. In per

157
00:07:59,040 –> 00:08:02,939
Stephen Koukoulas: capita terms, probably close to zero. In angle terms, probably

158
00:08:02,940 –> 00:08:07,800
Stephen Koukoulas: dipping below 2%. So a soft result, but we are not in

159
00:08:07,800 –> 00:08:10,500
Stephen Koukoulas: free fall in terms of how the economy is going.

160
00:08:10,500 –> 00:08:14,640
Stephen Koukoulas: So a lot to digest later this week. RBA, GDP numbers,

161
00:08:15,179 –> 00:08:17,880
Stephen Koukoulas: Governor Lowe’s speech. I love it. I love it.

162
00:08:18,120 –> 00:08:21,480
Jennifer Duke: I think it’s going to be a really, really busy one. Is there anything

163
00:08:21,480 –> 00:08:22,859
Jennifer Duke: else that we should be expecting coming up?

164
00:08:23,850 –> 00:08:25,590
Stephen Koukoulas: Look, there’s a couple of bits and bobs too. We

165
00:08:25,590 –> 00:08:28,890
Stephen Koukoulas: do get the Melbourne Institute Monthly Inflation Gauge. Not a

166
00:08:28,890 –> 00:08:32,219
Stephen Koukoulas: bad leading indicator on the official inflation numbers. The A

167
00:08:33,059 –> 00:08:36,630
Stephen Koukoulas: and Z Indeed job ad series comes out. With the

168
00:08:36,630 –> 00:08:38,849
Stephen Koukoulas: slowing economy, of course there’s been a dip in demand for

169
00:08:38,849 –> 00:08:42,690
Stephen Koukoulas: labor, so probably another moderate fall in the number of

170
00:08:42,690 –> 00:08:45,330
Stephen Koukoulas: job advertisements coming through.
And then we’ve got things like

171
00:08:45,330 –> 00:08:48,569
Stephen Koukoulas: new motor vehicle sales and the international trade data. We’re going

172
00:08:48,690 –> 00:08:52,500
Stephen Koukoulas: to be recording another big international trade surplus. Even though

173
00:08:52,500 –> 00:08:55,200
Stephen Koukoulas: some of the commodity prices have come down, export volumes

174
00:08:55,200 –> 00:08:58,920
Stephen Koukoulas: are still pretty resilient and imports are probably pretty weak

175
00:08:58,920 –> 00:09:03,000
Stephen Koukoulas: as domestic demand in Australia’s slowing. So another 10 odd

176
00:09:03,000 –> 00:09:04,949
Stephen Koukoulas: billion monthly trade surplus.

177
00:09:05,250 –> 00:09:07,199
Jennifer Duke: Good grief. It’s going to be a very busy week.

178
00:09:07,200 –> 00:09:09,120
Jennifer Duke: Stephen, I hope you have a really good one for

179
00:09:09,120 –> 00:09:09,870
Jennifer Duke: the rest of the week.

180
00:09:10,230 –> 00:09:12,088
Stephen Koukoulas: I will, Jen. You, too. Thanks very much.

181
00:09:12,509 –> 00:09:15,089
Jennifer Duke: And that was economist Stephen Koukoulas, better known as The

182
00:09:15,480 –> 00:09:17,549
Jennifer Duke: Kouk. You can find him at thekouk. com and follow

183
00:09:17,549 –> 00:09:21,179
Jennifer Duke: him on X using the handle TheKouk. I’m Jennifer Duke, economics

184
00:09:21,179 –> 00:09:23,970
Jennifer Duke: correspondent at Capital Brief. I’m filling in for Sean Aylmer,

185
00:09:24,179 –> 00:09:25,828
Jennifer Duke: and this is Fear and Greed – The Week Ahead.