Interview: How business REALLY feels about AI

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Jennifer Duke: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I’m Jennifer

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Jennifer Duke: Duke. Right now everybody’s talking about AI. The conversation ranges

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Jennifer Duke: from the global challenges over regulation, right through to how

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Jennifer Duke: businesses can best use the technology to improve productivity, but

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Jennifer Duke: clearly they want to do it safely. New research from

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Jennifer Duke: global small business platform Xero shows that 80% of small

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Jennifer Duke: businesses are concerned that AI development and adoption is outpacing

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Jennifer Duke: regulation.
James Bergin is the Executive General Manager – Technology, Strategy &

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Jennifer Duke: Integration at Xero. He appeared last week at Xerocon, which

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Jennifer Duke: featured plenty of discussion about AI. Xero is a great

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Jennifer Duke: supporter of this podcast. James, welcome to Fear and Greed.

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James Bergin: Oh, thanks, Jen, it’s great to be here.

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Jennifer Duke: So that statistic is pretty remarkable. 80% of small businesses

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Jennifer Duke: are worried that AI development and adoption is outpacing regulation.

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Jennifer Duke: It shows just how quickly this technology has developed, doesn’t it?

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James Bergin: Absolutely. Yeah, it really does. It was quite an interesting

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James Bergin: stat to see coming through from the research, particularly because

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James Bergin: we still saw some positivity from small businesses in terms

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James Bergin: of wanting to explore the space, but just how fast

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James Bergin: it’s moving and how quick it’s moving. And particularly, even

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James Bergin: if you just think the last six to nine months

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James Bergin: how much the average person on the street is thinking

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James Bergin: about AI, probably a lot more this year than they

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James Bergin: were last year.

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Jennifer Duke: Even my parents are now talking to me about it.

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Jennifer Duke: Always a good sign that it’s popular. So your Future

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Jennifer Duke: Focus AI Research surveyed more than 3, 000 small business

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Jennifer Duke: owners from Australia, Canada, the US, UK, New Zealand, and Singapore.

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Jennifer Duke: What in particular are they concerned about?

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James Bergin: There’s a number of things that rose to the top

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James Bergin: of their concerns. One of the big ones was sensitive

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James Bergin: information disclosure. So this is where, especially when you’re using some

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James Bergin: of the public- facing tools, there’s a bit of concern about, ”

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James Bergin: Am I sharing information which is going to then be

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James Bergin: used to train some of these models? How is it

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James Bergin: going to be used? How are others going to access

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James Bergin: it?” Right up there with that concern was data privacy

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James Bergin: in general, so just violations of the data privacy concerns.

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James Bergin: And then I think a big one that’s not just

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James Bergin: for small businesses but is in the economy in general,

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James Bergin: is this question, should we say, around worker displacement. And

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James Bergin: are we going to see jobs disappear or how much

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James Bergin: does that happen when new jobs are being created? And

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James Bergin: there’s a lot of uncertainty in that space.

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Jennifer Duke: Definitely. And your research also found that many businesses are

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Jennifer Duke: trying to stay ahead of the curve on AI. 32%

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Jennifer Duke: are experimenting with AI tools. How are they managing their

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Jennifer Duke: risks at the same time?

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James Bergin: Yeah, it’s good question. Something actually that I was actually

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James Bergin: talking to a number of accountants and bookkeepers about this

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James Bergin: when we were at Xerocon the other week, just trying

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James Bergin: to see what they were seeing from their clients. And

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James Bergin: I think it ranges quite widely in terms of how

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James Bergin: people are. So we say tentatively experimenting in some cases,

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James Bergin: and in some cases they’re thrown themselves at it.
One

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James Bergin: of the things we talked about was being really, really

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James Bergin: clear around which data you’re using when you are involved

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James Bergin: in some of these tools. At Xero we have our

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James Bergin: responsible data usage commitments. We use those to really guide

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James Bergin: all the work that we do in this space. And while

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James Bergin: small businesses might not have the equivalent commitments, having something

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James Bergin: that really guides them to go, ” Well, hang on a

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James Bergin: second. Is this data that I’m using for this, is

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James Bergin: that actually sensitive? Do I know exactly where it’s going?

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James Bergin: Do I know how it’s being used?” These are questions

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James Bergin: that are really worth asking at the outset so that

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James Bergin: you don’t find yourself a little bit tangled up later on.

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Jennifer Duke: Are you finding that the businesses are making the mistakes

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Jennifer Duke: though, even though obviously you’re trying to communicate with them,

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Jennifer Duke: are they taking unnecessary risks right now?

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James Bergin: I don’t know if it’s unnecessary risks or if it’s

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James Bergin: inadvertent risk. I think that sometimes people just don’t ask

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James Bergin: maybe two or three questions of them themselves ahead of

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James Bergin: the action. Especially if you think about some of the

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James Bergin: public tools that have really captured the imagination of everyone

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James Bergin: out there. It’s just very easy to run into them and go, “Oh, look,

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James Bergin: this is great and I can use it for this

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James Bergin: and I can use it for this.”
And so I

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James Bergin: think it’s just trying to really think about it in

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James Bergin: the context of what will happen if. What would happen

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James Bergin: if I use this or if I share this or

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James Bergin: if someone else had access to it. And so it’s

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James Bergin: different for every small business obviously, because they have different

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James Bergin: data that they have to look after and protect as

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James Bergin: well. So there’s no blanket rule. It’s more a matter

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James Bergin: of trying to find what the new common sense is

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James Bergin: in this crazy new world.

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Jennifer Duke: Stay with me, James. We’ll be back in a minute.

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Jennifer Duke: I am talking to James Bergin from Xero. And obviously there’s a

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Jennifer Duke: lot of priorities for businesses at the moment, but where

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Jennifer Duke: does AI rank as a priority for small businesses?

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James Bergin: We definitely saw that it was quite high, quite high

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James Bergin: as an area for exploration. It was up there. A

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James Bergin: lot of it does depend on the industry that the

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James Bergin: small business is operating in as well. There are some

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James Bergin: industries where it’s a little bit more closer to the

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James Bergin: surface, shall we say, than in others. But definitely exploring

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James Bergin: and experimenting was, in our survey anyway, ranked very highly,

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James Bergin: and that was pretty much across the board.

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Jennifer Duke: Were you surprised by that?

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James Bergin: I don’t know if I was surprised, mainly because there’s

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James Bergin: been so much coverage of this. And we talked a

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James Bergin: little bit at Xerocon about the classic Hype Cycle. If

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James Bergin: you take Gartner’s Hype Cycle and you see where these

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James Bergin: technologies are, and particularly when they’re close to that what

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James Bergin: they call the peak of inflated expectations. It’s called that

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James Bergin: for a reason. And I think that a lot of people

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James Bergin: get very excited about it. I think seeing that small

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James Bergin: businesses were on both hands, that they were concerned that

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James Bergin: the development was moving faster than regulation and in many

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James Bergin: cases calling for regulation. And on the other end, they’re

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James Bergin: still actively experimenting and investing in these tools and dedicating

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James Bergin: time to using them.
So it’s almost like small businesses

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James Bergin: are reflecting what I think most consumers are reflecting, which is, ”

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James Bergin: This is interesting, these new technologies are unlocking new capabilities.

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James Bergin: Can they help me solve new problems, or can they

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James Bergin: help me solve old problems in new ways?” And I

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James Bergin: think they’re wrestling with that same, ” Oh, how do we

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James Bergin: do that?” And at the same time, ” Oh, it’s a bit scary. I’m

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James Bergin: not quite sure how it all works.” And that’s where

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James Bergin: we’ve seen quite a lot of demand towards Xero for

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James Bergin: helping with education and awareness and helping understand how these

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James Bergin: technologies work and how best to use them.

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Jennifer Duke: What are some of those tools available for businesses to

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Jennifer Duke: educate themselves, and how does Xero come into that picture?

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James Bergin: We launched a thing called Future Focus, which is pretty self-explanatory.

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James Bergin: We focus on the future. And we did this last year

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James Bergin: and started to cover a number of emerging technologies. If

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James Bergin: you think about some of the cryptocurrencies and blockchain, some of

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James Bergin: those ones, through to digital payments and obviously artificial intelligence.

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James Bergin: And so we’ve continued to create a number of those

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James Bergin: videos and blogs and just creating content that isn’t selling

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James Bergin: a concept or a product per se, it’s more a

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James Bergin: matter of explaining it from our perspective. And then we’ve

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James Bergin: continued to build on that. So as part of Xerocon

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James Bergin: we published a Future Focus guide, well, AI guide, for

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James Bergin: accountants and bookkeepers, to help them navigate the impact of

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James Bergin: AI on their practices and their clients. And we’ve continued

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James Bergin: to create content wherever we can really, just trying to

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James Bergin: leverage some of the expertise that we have in- house

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James Bergin: because we’ve got some incredibly smart people who work for us.

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James Bergin: And they’re very generous with their time, and they’re more

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James Bergin: than happy to share their expertise with our customers and

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James Bergin: our community.

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Jennifer Duke: And last week, also at Xerocon, there was a lot

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Jennifer Duke: of talk about how Xero’s incorporating AI into its own

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Jennifer Duke: platform. Can you take me through how that works, what

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Jennifer Duke: it looks like, and what kind of difference it makes

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Jennifer Duke: to how businesses can operate?

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James Bergin: Yeah, sure. I mean, one of the things that’s interesting

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James Bergin: about AI is it’s not actually a new technology, it’s

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James Bergin: been around in one form or another for decades now.

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James Bergin: Obviously in the last, say, 12 to 18 months there’s

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James Bergin: been a lot of exploration of generative AI in particular.

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James Bergin: And so what we talked about at Xerocon is the fact

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James Bergin: that we’ve got AI powering a number of our core products,

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James Bergin: have been there for a while. We talked about some

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James Bergin: enhancements that we’re putting in place. For example, our bank

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James Bergin: reconciliation process, we’ve just enhanced the AI so that it

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James Bergin: will populate new contacts that aren’t already in the business’s

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James Bergin: contact list, so we’ll be able to infer that. Or

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James Bergin: we’ve made some changes to our short- term cashflow forecasting,

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James Bergin: which will now include predictions for regular, repeated invoices and

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James Bergin: invoice and bill payments. So it’s taking some of these

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James Bergin: capabilities that we’ve already had in-market and then tweaked the

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James Bergin: AI or continue to evolve it so that it has

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James Bergin: more capabilities. And then we’re also looking at some of

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James Bergin: the generative AI and looking at how we can experiment

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James Bergin: with that. And we use that word deliberately because it

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James Bergin: is an experiment. It is looking at things like, for example,

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James Bergin: Xero Central, which is our help database that helps customers

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James Bergin: understand how to use the product. Is there ways where

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James Bergin: we can use some of the conversational capabilities that come

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James Bergin: from generative AI tools to deliver a better customer experience,

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James Bergin: when it comes to … Instead of a search returning content,

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James Bergin: which is what the current AI provides, what about if

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James Bergin: a question returns an answer, which is more where we

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James Bergin: are thinking about with these generative AI experiments. So really,

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James Bergin: AI is not new, it’s not new to us, but

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James Bergin: what we’re continuing to do is to think about it in

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James Bergin: the context of the problems we’re trying to solve for customers.

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James Bergin: And do these capabilities enable that in a new way.

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Jennifer Duke: Can you give me some examples of the types of

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Jennifer Duke: businesses and types of customers that you’re getting a lot

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Jennifer Duke: of interest from. I mean, particular sectors, perhaps?

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James Bergin: I don’t know if there’s a particular sector that comes

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James Bergin: to the top of mind. I think it’s more we’re

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James Bergin: seeing a lot of interest … If you think about industries

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James Bergin: that are focused on content creation, then obviously they are

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James Bergin: more interested in generative AI in particular because of the

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James Bergin: nature of the AI is that it’s very driven towards

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James Bergin: creating content, generating content. So I think some of those

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James Bergin: that are operating in those sectors are quite interested about, ”

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James Bergin: What does this mean for me if I’m a digital

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James Bergin: marketing agency or if I’m a digital artist, what does

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James Bergin: that mean when I’m using a tool … When someone else

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James Bergin: can create an image using a tool that doesn’t use

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James Bergin: me?” So I think there’s some of those industries where

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James Bergin: the generative AI in particular is more, as I say,

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James Bergin: close to the surface.
I think for the rest of

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James Bergin: the industries it was more a matter of all of

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James Bergin: them are asking, ” Well, what does this mean for me?

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James Bergin: What does this mean if I’m more driven around calculations

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James Bergin: and insight? Does that mean that generative AI, with it’s

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James Bergin: sometimes, shall we say, creative responses to questions, is that

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James Bergin: something that I need to be worried about? Is it

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James Bergin: something that I need to be leveraging?” Accountants and bookkeepers

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James Bergin: themselves are asking questions about what this means when it

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James Bergin: comes to some of the insights that they provide.
And

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James Bergin: we talk about at Xero, our vision is to be

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James Bergin: one of the most trusted and insightful, or the most

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James Bergin: trusted and insightful small business platform. And in doing that

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James Bergin: we have to have a balance between the insights and

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James Bergin: how we provide the right insights at the right time,

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James Bergin: and the trust. So how do you ensure that those

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James Bergin: are insights you can trust? And I think that’s something

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James Bergin: that’s quite emerged from a number of different industries. It’s

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James Bergin: not really a particular sector, but it’s more saying, yes,

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James Bergin: that balance of insight and trust is what they’re looking for.

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Jennifer Duke: And that trust element is obviously very critical. And it

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Jennifer Duke: sounds like Xero’s being incredibly thoughtful about the integration of

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Jennifer Duke: AI in different technologies. Is that part of the way that

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Jennifer Duke: businesses can mitigate that risk? Is it being careful about

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Jennifer Duke: the partners that they choose to work with?

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James Bergin: I mean, I think so, absolutely. I think that being

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James Bergin: clear on what is underpinning the decisions that are being

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James Bergin: made by the partners, the organisations, the platforms that small

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James Bergin: businesses use, is a really important question to ask. And

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James Bergin: I think if you look in our context, we are

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James Bergin: really having that vision of being the most trusted and

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James Bergin: insightful at the top. And then, as I mentioned before,

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James Bergin: our responsible data usage commitments. These aren’t just phrases. These

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James Bergin: are things that are really at the core, the principles

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James Bergin: of how we make the decisions for deploying the technology

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James Bergin: that we’re using. So we are very public about that,

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James Bergin: we say, ” Here are our responsible data usage commitments. This

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James Bergin: is what we’re holding ourselves to.” And I think that

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James Bergin: that’s something that, for all small businesses to consider, when

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James Bergin: they’re thinking about using a platform. Especially when we go

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James Bergin: back to those risks, those concerns that they highlighted in

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James Bergin: the survey back to us, if they’re worried about sensitive

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James Bergin: information disclosure or they’re worried about data privacy, these are

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James Bergin: things which it’s important to ask of the tools and

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James Bergin: the platforms that they’re using as well. So yeah, I

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James Bergin: do think it’s very, very important.

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Jennifer Duke: I think that’s excellent. James, thank you so much for

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Jennifer Duke: talking to Fear and Greed.

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James Bergin: My pleasure, Jennifer. Thanks very much for having me.

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Jennifer Duke: And that was James Bergin, Executive General Manager – Technology, Strategy &

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Jennifer Duke: Integration at Xero, which is a supporter of this podcast.

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Jennifer Duke: This is The Fear and Greed Daily Interview. Join us

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Jennifer Duke: every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed,

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Jennifer Duke: Australia’s best business podcast. I’m Jennifer Duke, Economics Correspondent for

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Jennifer Duke: Capital Brief, and filling in for Sean Aylmer. Have a

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Jennifer Duke: great day.