Interview: In a perfect financial storm, cash is king

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Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed business interview, I’m Sean Aylmer.

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Sean Aylmer: Plenty of small and medium-sized businesses are doing it tough

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Sean Aylmer: right now. Interest rates have shut up in the last

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Sean Aylmer: year to combat soaring inflation. The minimum wage has just

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Sean Aylmer: increased as well, and we still have an extremely tight

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Sean Aylmer: labour market, meaning there’s more competition to fill roles. While

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Sean Aylmer: supply chains have smoothed out a lot since the COVID disruption,

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Sean Aylmer: it’s still not perfect and businesses are being hit by higher

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Sean Aylmer: costs across the board, led by huge hikes to power bills.

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Sean Aylmer: In the words of my guest today, “It’s a perfect

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Sean Aylmer: financial storm.” In the middle of it are SMEs trying to

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Sean Aylmer: pay suppliers and get paid themselves, putting cashflow and working

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Sean Aylmer: capital challenges right at the forefront of every business owner’s mind.

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Sean Aylmer: Wayne Morris is the Chief Executive Officer of business finance provider,

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Sean Aylmer: Fifo Capital, and a supporter of this podcast. Wayne, welcome

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Sean Aylmer: to Fear and Greed.

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Wayne Morris: Great, thanks for having me.

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Sean Aylmer: A perfect financial storm, so have you ever seen so

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Sean Aylmer: many challenges hit small business or SMEs all at once?

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Wayne Morris: Look, I have. Back in the UK when the global crash,

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Wayne Morris: I was there. For my sins, I’m ex-Grant Thornton. We

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Wayne Morris: were commissioned at the time to help SMEs get back

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Wayne Morris: on their feet and get back on track. Slightly different problems,

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Wayne Morris: but came to the perfect storm. Problems with cashflow, problems

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Wayne Morris: with accessing finance, interest rates, et cetera. We’re seeing a

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Wayne Morris: similar thing happening here.

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Sean Aylmer: Before we get into the importance of cashflow and things

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Sean Aylmer: like that, how did that play out, and do you

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Sean Aylmer: think it’ll be similarly here?

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Wayne Morris: Well, the key difference, I think, in the UK was

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Wayne Morris: there was a massive, massive investment from the government in

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Wayne Morris: looking at ways to help SMEs solve their problems. That’s

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Wayne Morris: really what was the creation of things like alternative finance

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Wayne Morris: solutions when banks weren’t lending. Looking at the British Business Bank,

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Wayne Morris: which brought affordable funding back on the table for SMEs,

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Wayne Morris: which wasn’t available from the bank. There was a lot

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Wayne Morris: of things done driven by the government to actually do that.

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Wayne Morris: Over here, obviously we have a problem with many different

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Wayne Morris: factors affecting businesses. Obviously Australia, different to the UK. Immigration

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Wayne Morris: is a big problem, finding workforce. They just seem to

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Wayne Morris: have disappeared after COVID. Wherever they went, I have no

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Wayne Morris: idea because we were all in lockdown, but massive problem there.

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Wayne Morris: Obviously you’re right, interest rates, lack of access to finance,

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Wayne Morris: supply chains. We’ve seen so many SMEs struggle because they

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Wayne Morris: just can’t get the goods from overseas anymore because they

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Wayne Morris: just can’t get them imported. All the ships aren’t there anymore.

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Wayne Morris: It’s a different problem, but it’s got to be dealt

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Wayne Morris: with from many different areas. Government as well as support

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Wayne Morris: from banks, institutions, and I’m just not seeing that actually happening.

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Wayne Morris: I don’t think the budget recently helped SMEs at all.

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Wayne Morris: It was very light on any support.

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Sean Aylmer: Is this a cashflow challenge more than anything else?

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Wayne Morris: Look, cashflow is king. The old saying, “Turnover is vanity.”

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Wayne Morris: Cashflow is king within a business. If you’ve got cash

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Wayne Morris: flowing through your business, you technically don’t need to be profitable.

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Wayne Morris: You could break even and still trade. When you’re not

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Wayne Morris: getting cashflow through because you can’t trade because you can’t

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Wayne Morris: buy goods, it’s going to cause your business to fall over. SMEs,

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Wayne Morris: people say the engine room, I know I coined that

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Wayne Morris: phrase immediately I landed in Australia. They are the engine room

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Wayne Morris: of the country. If they stall, we stall as a country.

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Wayne Morris: Net largest provider of employment, so if they’re not having

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Wayne Morris: access to solutions or the ability to keep cashflow flowing

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Wayne Morris: through their business, then the lifeline of their business is

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Wayne Morris: at risk.

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Sean Aylmer: This is where Fifo Capital comes into it, businesses who

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Sean Aylmer: find themselves in a tight spot with cashflow. They’ve got

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Sean Aylmer: a bunch of options, and I would like to go

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Sean Aylmer: through some of them. Let’s start with working capital loans?

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Wayne Morris: Working capital loans, in my view, is just simply a

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Wayne Morris: bandaid over a bigger problem. Any form of business loan,

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Wayne Morris: which is good… You’ve got to look at finance in

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Wayne Morris: the space of what are you trying to use it for?

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Wayne Morris: If you’re taking a business loan to solve cashflow problems, in

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Wayne Morris: my opinion, you are just delaying the problem. That’s why

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Wayne Morris: I mean it’s a bandaid. What you’ll typically find, or

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Wayne Morris: we find as a financier, or every financier will tell you.

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Wayne Morris: You look at a balance sheet of a business, and

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Wayne Morris: all that happens is you just see loans on that

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Wayne Morris: balance sheet. They’ve taken the loan as a short-term fix,

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Wayne Morris: but it’s now sat on their balance sheet for another

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Wayne Morris: 12 months while they pay it off. That’s not good

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Wayne Morris: for business. What is good for business is smart solutions,

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Wayne Morris: which historically have been held back for bigger businesses, but

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Wayne Morris: smarter solutions which are more transactional in their approach that

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Wayne Morris: helps smaller businesses bridge the gap of whether it’s being

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Wayne Morris: paid slowly. So, cashflow or having to pay suppliers working

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Wayne Morris: capital because that kind of finance is directly linked into

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Wayne Morris: the way a business trades and supports that trading. Whereas

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Wayne Morris: loans are just a slug of cash that’s going to

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Wayne Morris: fix something to today but present a problem of its

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Wayne Morris: own nature later on down the line.

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Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Wayne. We’ll be back in a minute.

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Sean Aylmer: I’m speaking to Wayne Morris, CEO of business finance provider

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Sean Aylmer: Fifo Capital. Okay, so what are some of these smartest

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Sean Aylmer: solutions? What are some of the examples?

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Wayne Morris: Okay. You’ve got things like trade finance, supply chain finance. Now,

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Wayne Morris: supply chain finance, some of your listeners will listen to

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Wayne Morris: that and know that it’s been through a bit of an interesting phase

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Wayne Morris: within Australia. I did speak at government about this and

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Wayne Morris: why it is actually a very good product for smaller businesses.

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Wayne Morris: These products allow businesses that are on poor terms with

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Wayne Morris: their suppliers. Let’s say they’re on 30-day terms or COD (Cash On Delivery) terms,

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Wayne Morris: but they need longer terms to still have the supplier

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Wayne Morris: paid on the normal terms of 30 days but then pay the

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Wayne Morris: financier back say in 120 days. Now, what that allows

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Wayne Morris: them to do is take those goods from a supplier,

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Wayne Morris: turn them into whatever product they’re making for their customer,

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Wayne Morris: sell them to the customer and effectively then get paid by

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Wayne Morris: the customer, knowing that they’re not under pressure to have

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Wayne Morris: paid the supplier because that’s already been taken care of

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Wayne Morris: by the financier. When the customer pays, then our client

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Wayne Morris: just simply pays us back. It’s a very transactional type

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Wayne Morris: of finance which rotates through as they need it, and

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Wayne Morris: they dip in and out as they need it. Another

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Wayne Morris: version is a cashflow finance solution. Now, cashflow finance is where business

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Wayne Morris: can take their say slower paying customers who might be

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Wayne Morris: larger customers. I’m happy to talk about why I don’t

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Wayne Morris: think the way we address larger customers paying slowly is

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Wayne Morris: the right way in Australia, but nevertheless. But you’ve got

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Wayne Morris: larger customers who pay slower because they’ve got their own constraints.

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Wayne Morris: You can take finance products that a business can say, “Well, actually,

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Wayne Morris: I’ll use my financier to pay that invoice to me early.

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Wayne Morris: Then when my customer pays, I’ll just pay the financier back.” Now,

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Wayne Morris: what that does is that removes any cashflow constraints on

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Wayne Morris: the business immediately. They’ve got no late paying customers anymore.

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Wayne Morris: The financier takes on a lot of the burden of that,

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Wayne Morris: and the SME can actually get on with actually running

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Wayne Morris: their business.

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Sean Aylmer: Then so where’s trade finance fit into this?

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Wayne Morris: Trade finance fits into it where if I’ve got a

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Wayne Morris: lot of suppliers that I need to buy things from

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Wayne Morris: and they’re on let’s say COD terms, I can use

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Wayne Morris: trade finance to pay those supplies for the goods. I

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Wayne Morris: can then make those goods, and I can pay the

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Wayne Morris: financier back once I’ve been paid by my customer. That’s

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Wayne Morris: more of a working capital solution.

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Sean Aylmer: Okay. But the point with the supply chain finance and

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Sean Aylmer: you sort of… They’re not loans, they’re not long- term

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Sean Aylmer: loans which just sit on your balance sheet anyway. They’re

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Sean Aylmer: much more transactional, which you can dip in and out

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Sean Aylmer: of as needed.

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Wayne Morris: Yeah, absolutely. In every business that exists, no matter what

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Wayne Morris: industry they’re in, there’s a thing called the cash conversion cycle.

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Wayne Morris: That’s the amount of time you have to pay your

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Wayne Morris: suppliers less the time that goods are in stock and

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Wayne Morris: the time that your customers take to pay. In other words,

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Wayne Morris: that’s the period of time that you’re going to turn

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Wayne Morris: your money. If your suppliers could be 30 days, but

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Wayne Morris: you’ve then got 30 days of making something and 30

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Wayne Morris: days to be paid. You can see you’re going to

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Wayne Morris: need some cash to bridge that. These products help SMEs

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Wayne Morris: shorten that cycle, so to in effect turn themselves into a Deloy

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Wayne Morris: and Amazon because those guys are paid before they have

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Wayne Morris: to pay their suppliers. What we could do with our

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Wayne Morris: products is actually help a business bridge the gaps that

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Wayne Morris: are the constraints on their cashflow or working capital. We

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Wayne Morris: bridge it, we are kind of in the middle, and

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Wayne Morris: help them shorten that cash conversion cycle so they can

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Wayne Morris: either get paid earlier or delay their payments to their

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Wayne Morris: suppliers as needed. What’s best for their business, but without

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Wayne Morris: disrupting the relationship with the supplier or the customer. That’s

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Wayne Morris: the true win-win of this. When you bring that into

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Wayne Morris: the SME space in Australia, what you actually do is you free

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Wayne Morris: up for all businesses to trade on the terms they

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Wayne Morris: want without actually disrupting the terms their customers and suppliers

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Wayne Morris: want as well. It’s a true win- win situation for

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Wayne Morris: all businesses.

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Sean Aylmer: Okay. What types of businesses are typically taking advantage of

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Sean Aylmer: Fifo Capital and providers like yourselves?

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Wayne Morris: We’ve got construction, manufacturing, importers. Particularly a lot of importers

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Wayne Morris: where it’s taking longer times to get things in. Logistic companies.

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Wayne Morris: Pretty much any company with a supply chain or a customer

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Wayne Morris: base where they are feeling the pinch of longer credit

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Wayne Morris: terms or worse terms with their suppliers.

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Sean Aylmer: Okay. I’ll ask you about Fifo Pay before we go too. It’s

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Sean Aylmer: your latest offering. It uses AI to act as a

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Sean Aylmer: digital CFO, or at least that’s how it was described to

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Sean Aylmer: me. How’s it work? Is it all about automating cashflow management?

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Wayne Morris: No, it’s way more than that. One of the key

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Wayne Morris: things I think SMEs also shouldn’t have to suffer is

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Wayne Morris: invoice fraud that we’re seeing more and more of. What Fifo Pay does…

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Wayne Morris: We give this to businesses, there’s no fee for this.

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Wayne Morris: We don’t see why we should charge for this. We

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Wayne Morris: give them the ability to use Fifo Pay firstly to

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Wayne Morris: analyse their invoices on the fly and identify for them

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Wayne Morris: where there are potentially fraudulent, or should we say misrepresented

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Wayne Morris: the invoices from suppliers so they know they don’t get caught out. Secondly,

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Wayne Morris: what it does, it will tell them which suppliers will

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Wayne Morris: actually offer them a better deal if they could pay

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Wayne Morris: them early. It will also rate their customers and tell

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Wayne Morris: them which of their customers are actually worse or maybe

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Wayne Morris: even getting worse as a paying company. They can then

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Wayne Morris: inject finance from Fifo, or any other lender if they

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Wayne Morris: want to, it’s not about us, but they can inject finance where

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Wayne Morris: they need within that whole platform. They could say, “Okay, I’ve

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Wayne Morris: got supply discounts I can capitalise on if I had

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Wayne Morris: the money. Well, I’ll activate a Fifo overdraft because I

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Wayne Morris: don’t quite have the funds myself. I can get a

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Wayne Morris: two or 3% discount because I paid my supplier actually

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Wayne Morris: COD and Fifo’s going to cost me a fraction of

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Wayne Morris: a percent. Happy days. I’ve actually got a massive win- win.

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Wayne Morris: For my customers who are slower paying going to affect

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Wayne Morris: my cashflow, I can actually bring in funds to actually

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Wayne Morris: get my invoices paid early.” Ultimately the reason we call

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Wayne Morris: it the CFO, it’s your digital CFO, is it will

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Wayne Morris: tell you how your cashflow is going or your cash

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Wayne Morris: is going to look like over the next 3, 6,

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Wayne Morris: 9 months. Then tell you which of the best invoices

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Wayne Morris: you might want to finance-

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Sean Aylmer: All right.

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Wayne Morris: … to help that because those are the customers or suppliers that are going to

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Wayne Morris: most impact the future of your business.

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Sean Aylmer: Wayne, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.

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Wayne Morris: You’re welcome.

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Sean Aylmer: That was Wayne Morris, CEO of business finance provider, Fifo

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Sean Aylmer: Capital, a supporter of this podcast. This is the Fear

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Sean Aylmer: and Greed business interview. Remember discussion of financial products today

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Sean Aylmer: was general in nature, and you should seek professional advice

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Sean Aylmer: to decide what’s right for you. Join us every morning

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Sean Aylmer: for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia’s best

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Sean Aylmer: business podcast. I’m Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.