Interview: M&C Saatchi’s ad boss on the state of advertising

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Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I’m Sean

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Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. A constant challenge for companies is finding the right

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Sean Aylmer: way to connect with consumers and other businesses to make

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Sean Aylmer: sure their brand stays relevant and front of mind. And

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Sean Aylmer: often that means being a little bit creative. I wanted

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Sean Aylmer: to find out what the advertising industry is like post

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Sean Aylmer: COVID, whether brands are still willing to push the boundaries,

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Sean Aylmer: the role of trust in advertising, and whether the world

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Sean Aylmer: now really does revolve around TikTok. Justin Graham is group

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Sean Aylmer: CEO of M& C Saatchi Australia and New Zealand and

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Sean Aylmer: Global Head of Advertising. Throughout his career, he’s advised clients

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Sean Aylmer: including Commonwealth Bank, Woolies, Tabcorp, Optus, Qantas, and more. And

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Sean Aylmer: that’s just the local companies. He’s joining us this morning

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Sean Aylmer: from Cannes, the most famous advertising festival in the world.

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Sean Aylmer: Justin, welcome to Fear and Greed.

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Justin Graham: Great to be here. Thank you.

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Sean Aylmer: I’ve got to ask you about Cannes first. I mean,

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Sean Aylmer: we’ll get into the stuff about brands and things. It’s

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Sean Aylmer: such a glamorous sounding place for people like me who

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Sean Aylmer: have never been there. What happens when all the ad

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Sean Aylmer: execs get together at Cannes? What’s it about?

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Justin Graham: That’s a great question. It’s 70 years actually of the

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Justin Graham: Cannes Lions Festival down here. I’m not sure why it

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Justin Graham: started here originally, but there’s obviously two main festivals down

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Justin Graham: in Cannes. There’s the film festival, which happened about three

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Justin Graham: weeks ago, and then there’s the advertising festival, which always

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Justin Graham: happens the second or third week of June. And yeah,

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Justin Graham: it’s tens of thousands of advertising media, entertainment executives descending

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Justin Graham: on one of the most beautiful places in the world,

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Justin Graham: which I think, at one point was very much around

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Justin Graham: patting each other on the back and more for the

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Justin Graham: creative side of the industry to be able to award

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Justin Graham: each other the best work that was happening around the

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Justin Graham: world and inspire each other.
And over the years, that

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Justin Graham: has very much evolved, and now awards are still a

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Justin Graham: part of the festival, but now it’s very much around

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Justin Graham: a showcase for new technology, understanding at least the media

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Justin Graham: environment and a place where the people that actually paid

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Justin Graham: the bills, the clients, probably never came and weren’t seen.

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Justin Graham: It’s very much a festival designed for the clients to

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Justin Graham: be as much a part of that community and part

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Justin Graham: of the conversation as the agencies.

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Sean Aylmer: It’d be a great week or two to be in

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Sean Aylmer: the French Riviera, no doubt about it. So tell me,

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Sean Aylmer: how has advertising changed since the pandemic? Are brands becoming

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Sean Aylmer: more risk averse? Have they come out of their shell

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Sean Aylmer: again? Just broadly give us the temperature on brands.

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Justin Graham: Yeah, there was definitely a time through the pandemic where

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Justin Graham: I would say there was great safety around what we

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Justin Graham: were doing in the communication space, and that was very necessary.

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Justin Graham: I’ve talked in the past about how we went from

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Justin Graham: thinking around origination and brand building to a more utilitarian approach.

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Justin Graham: And as we think around the brands that we were

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Justin Graham: certainly fortunate to support through that time in Australia, the

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Justin Graham: likes of the Woolworths Group and Commonwealth Bank, even Tourism

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Justin Graham: Australia from a domestic point of view, it was more

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Justin Graham: practical in terms of what consumers and what people needed

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Justin Graham: from those brands at that time because there was some real,

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Justin Graham: obviously fear and some significant changes to how we were

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Justin Graham: living our lives. Coming out of that pandemic, there’s definitely

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Justin Graham: been some learnings around how we can talk to consumers

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Justin Graham: and what they want to hear from brands. There’s definitely

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Justin Graham: been a shift in media consumption. So significant shifts around

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Justin Graham: linear TV. Linear TV in particular, has effectively fallen off

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Justin Graham: a cliff. Now, that’s not to say that people aren’t engaging

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Justin Graham: in content, they’re just engaging in their own time, Catch

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Justin Graham: Up TV, BVOD, YouTube, and that’s really driving the way

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Justin Graham: that we think around how we send messages. The extraordinary

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Justin Graham: progress that happened around both data and personalisation as well

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Justin Graham: as AI, which I’m sure we will talk about, that’s

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Justin Graham: certainly been a theme this week as well, has meant

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Justin Graham: that the move away from big broadcast based advertising into

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Justin Graham: personalised one-to-one communication has really been a theme this week

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Justin Graham: and it’s been prominent around the world. It’s probably the

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Justin Graham: biggest impact that’s happened coming out of the pandemic.

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Sean Aylmer: In a practical sense, I mean, when you’re you talking

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Sean Aylmer: about that one- to- one communication, I think I understand

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Sean Aylmer: it, but can you give me an example of how

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Sean Aylmer: that works?

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Justin Graham: Yeah, so you mentioned TikTok upfront there as well, and

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Justin Graham: I think there’s how everyone’s feed is engaged with in

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Justin Graham: different ways. Brands showing up and using real data to

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Justin Graham: understand how you can serve those messages and serve that

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Justin Graham: content through the feed becomes very personalised. Netflix, for example,

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Justin Graham: a couple of years ago, their business model was very

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Justin Graham: much around subscription based services. Last year they announced they

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Justin Graham: were going to have an advertising funded model, and so surprise, surprise,

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Justin Graham: they’ve turned up at Cannes this year wanting to talk

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Justin Graham: to advertisers around how they can be part of the platform.

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Justin Graham: And so when you’re logged in and you’re part of

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Justin Graham: your Netflix subscription, then you can have effectively personalized ads.

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Justin Graham: And as we start to look into artificial intelligence to

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Justin Graham: be able to generate that as well, what you might

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Justin Graham: see through your Netflix feed if you go down that

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Justin Graham: path to have that funded service will be different to mine.

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Justin Graham: And that’s a great opportunity for advertisers because in the past

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Justin Graham: it was one message going out to the masses. Now,

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Justin Graham: there’s an opportunity to customise that message through all the

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Justin Graham: pipes that we know that come into our house and

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Justin Graham: through our phone.

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Sean Aylmer: Yeah, the flip side of that though, as an advertiser,

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Sean Aylmer: how do I know which one to take? So if

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Sean Aylmer: Netflix is coming to me and linear TV’s coming to

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Sean Aylmer: me, podcasts are coming to me, how do I know

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Sean Aylmer: which option to take?

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Justin Graham: Yeah, I think there’s a value exchange that happens with

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Justin Graham: consumers and they’re getting content, they’re getting entertainment, they’re getting news,

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Justin Graham: whatever it might be. And so on the flip side there,

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Justin Graham: there’s an opportunity for brands to be able to go

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Justin Graham: and customise the messages that they’re saying there. So I

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Justin Graham: think it’s an interesting world at the moment because certainly

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Justin Graham: talking to people down here, walking along the Croisette, as

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Justin Graham: they say, down in the French Riviera, it’s an uncertain

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Justin Graham: time as well. It’s an uncertain time around where brands

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Justin Graham: should be investing their money. Traditional metrics around Share of

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Justin Graham: Voice for example, are still very prominent and a lot

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Justin Graham: of the marketeers and boards are still incentivised around that.

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Justin Graham: But how do you go and get that reach when

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Justin Graham: you’re going down these more one-to-one channels? So it’s just

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Justin Graham: reconciling itself at the moment. And so it will be interesting

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Justin Graham: in the next couple of years what that means for

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Justin Graham: advertising and creativity and where that takes it.

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Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Justin. We’ll be back in a minute.

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Sean Aylmer: My guest today is Justin Graham, Group CEO at M&C

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Sean Aylmer: Saatchi Australia and New Zealand and Global Head of Advertising.

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Sean Aylmer: I’m interested in the brand itself. I mean, a brand

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Sean Aylmer: kind of represents a company or a product or whatever,

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Sean Aylmer: but if it’s one-to-one, can you have a bunch of

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Sean Aylmer: different brands for the one product?

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Justin Graham: Yeah, it’s a really good observation because effectively you can.

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Justin Graham: I mean, we customize these brands and a brand that

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Justin Graham: everyone knows is Nike, and Nike’s had a very good

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Justin Graham: week again here winning some awards for some work that

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Justin Graham: they’ve done. And Nike, I think, do it brilliantly. When

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Justin Graham: they think about their brand having a core, and then

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Justin Graham: the flex that sits around that brand that allows it

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Justin Graham: to move into different places. Whether you’re a runner, a

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Justin Graham: yoga instructor, or someone that’s just trying to go for

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Justin Graham: a walk or someone that’s a skateboarder or whatever it

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Justin Graham: might be, that brand stretches into all those different areas.

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Justin Graham: So theoretically, your Nike experience would be very different to

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Justin Graham: my Nike experience. Yeah, and that’s something that we’re all

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Justin Graham: grappling with as well because arguably it was easier in

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Justin Graham: the past. I’m sure that people that were in the

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Justin Graham: past say, “No, it wasn’t easy then. It was just

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Justin Graham: as hard.” But we look back and say, “It was

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Justin Graham: probably easier because there was one message and you would

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Justin Graham: take a broader insight around society.” Let’s just take Nike

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Justin Graham: and they still stick to their purpose, which they believe

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Justin Graham: everyone’s an athlete. How that manifests itself across multiple channels

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Justin Graham: and messages is really what’s changed.

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Sean Aylmer: I’ve got to ask about TikTok. We’ve mentioned it a

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Sean Aylmer: couple of times. Every time you read about TikTok, the

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Sean Aylmer: audience is growing and not withstanding some of the geopolitical

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Sean Aylmer: concerns, it is an incredibly powerful medium. Are brands using

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Sean Aylmer: TikTok to reflect the numbers of people using TikTok?

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Justin Graham: They are. I mean, TikTok’s just on an incredible journey of growth and are very

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Justin Graham: prominent, again, here. It’s often interesting to see the rise

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Justin Graham: in potentially more muted brands. Brands like Twitter, for example,

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Justin Graham: with all the challenges that they’ve had, are very muted

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Justin Graham: in terms of their appearance. Whereas TikTok is very significant

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Justin Graham: and their growth is just extraordinary around the world. Brands

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Justin Graham: love TikTok because it’s a place where creation happens as

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Justin Graham: well. It really is a creator’s platform, and so they

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Justin Graham: can be very creative around that piece. And it’s interesting,

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Justin Graham: I think the rise of TikTok, many brands were on

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Justin Graham: TikTok before they even realized they were on TikTok because

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Justin Graham: their employees, their staff members were uploading content around their

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Justin Graham: experience. And so yeah, it’s a fascinating space to see

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Justin Graham: where that will go to, outside of the geopolitical concerns

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Justin Graham: as exactly as you said.

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Sean Aylmer: I’ve got to ask you about creativity just quickly, where

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Sean Aylmer: does Australia stack up in terms of creativity? Because you’re

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Sean Aylmer: in the centre of the advertising world right now, how

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Sean Aylmer: do we perform?

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Justin Graham: Australia’s always performed very well. We punch above our weight

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Justin Graham: and really perform well on the world stage. And after a

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Justin Graham: few quieter years in terms of our creativity, and I

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Justin Graham: think that was a product of a longer lockdown period,

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Justin Graham: more internally focused from an industry point of view in

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Justin Graham: terms of supporting each other and supporting the brands that

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Justin Graham: were certainly from on the domestic front through the pandemic.

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Justin Graham: This year has been a real return to form. There’s

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Justin Graham: been Australians winning across the world stage every night. There’s

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Justin Graham: a series of awards across the different types of advertising,

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Justin Graham: whether that be film or entertainment or effectiveness, et cetera.

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Justin Graham: And every night Australians have done incredibly well. So it’s

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Justin Graham: great to see my colleagues around the world getting up

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Justin Graham: there and getting some awards again and being recognized, because

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Justin Graham: Australia has always been a fascinating melting pot for creativity.

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Justin Graham: Australians have always done very well on the world stage

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Justin Graham: and are leading some of the biggest advertising networks in

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Justin Graham: the world and are very proud to be representing that from Australia.

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Justin Graham: So it’s great to see, and that only makes the

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Justin Graham: industry better. It makes M&C Saatchi better when you’re looking

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Justin Graham: at your peers doing very well, and it’s exciting around

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Justin Graham: what the next year ahead would look like.

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Sean Aylmer: I have to ask you, Justin, what’s your favourite ever campaign?

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Sean Aylmer: I mean, let’s say the favourite ever campaign you’ve worked on,

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Sean Aylmer: or maybe that’s going to narrow it too much, but

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Sean Aylmer: just give me a taste of one of your favourites.

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Justin Graham: Favourite campaign I ever worked on. The first campaign campaign

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Justin Graham: I ever worked on was Bundaberg Rum in Australia.

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Sean Aylmer: Oh, wow.

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Justin Graham: It’s sort a throwback there, which at the time was

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Justin Graham: doing phenomenally well and still is. And I just thought

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Justin Graham: that was fascinating around something that was so uniquely Australian

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Justin Graham: with the Bundy Bear and the representation that took across

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Justin Graham: regional Australia in particular. And that was a campaign that

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Justin Graham: didn’t translate so well in the world stage. But I

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Justin Graham: always look very fondly back on that and think I

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Justin Graham: learned a lot about how to embed brands and culture, and

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Justin Graham: Diageo a phenomenal marketing company.
I’ve been very fortunate to

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Justin Graham: work on some great brands around the world. And more

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Justin Graham: recently, the Tourism Australia work. We’ve done some fantastic campaigns,

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Justin Graham: both pre pandemic as we looked at getting people from

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Justin Graham: the UK into Australia, and then post pandemic with the

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Justin Graham: recent work we’ve done with G’Day, where we featured Australian

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Justin Graham: actor Rose Byrne and the American actor Will Arnett with

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Justin Graham: the help of some animated characters to go and welcome

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Justin Graham: Australia back. And that’s great nation building work because it’s

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Justin Graham: creativity that’s best and it’s out there and it’s such

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Justin Graham: an important job for the hundreds of thousands of small

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Justin Graham: business operators in Australia that rely on that sort of

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Justin Graham: communication for inbound tourism. So it’s great to work on

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Justin Graham: those big campaigns on the world stage.

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Sean Aylmer: Justin, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.

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Justin Graham: Thanks very much.

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Sean Aylmer: That was Justin Graham, Group CEO at M&C Saatchi Australia

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Sean Aylmer: and New Zealand and Global Head of Advertising. This is

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Sean Aylmer: the Fear and Greed daily interview. Join us every morning

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Sean Aylmer: for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia’s most

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Sean Aylmer: popular business podcast. I’m Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.