As AI technology leaps ahead, we can expect it to start playing a role in cyberattacks, making every organisation in the world more vulnerable. But the greatest risk may not come from the large targets: our biggest companies. Instead, it’s the smaller businesses they work with that may provide attackers with a back door.
Kris Lovejoy is one of the top cybersecurity experts in the world, having worked as the GM of the Security Services Division at IBM, Global Cybersecurity Leader at EY, and as a member of the World Economic Forum’s Centre for Cybersecurity.
She’s now the Global Security and Resilience Leader for Kyndryl – the world’s largest provider of IT infrastructure services – and tells Sean Aylmer what Australian companies need to be aware of as we enter a new era of cyber risk.
Kyndryl is a supporter of this podcast
Find out more: https://fearandgreed.com.au
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I’m Sean Aylmer.
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Sean Aylmer: AI technology has evolved extremely quickly. Just look at the
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Sean Aylmer: spectacular growth of generative AI platforms, like ChatGPT. But for
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Sean Aylmer: all the benefits of this new technology, and there are many,
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Sean Aylmer: there also some major risks. Chief among them is the
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Sean Aylmer: use of AI in cyber attacks, making every organisation in
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Sean Aylmer: the world more vulnerable. It means a new approach to
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Sean Aylmer: cybersecurity might be needed. I’m joined today by one of
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Sean Aylmer: the world’s leading experts in the space. Kris Lovejoy has
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Sean Aylmer: worked as the General Manager of the Security Services division
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Sean Aylmer: at IBM, Global Cybersecurity Leader at EY, and as a
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Sean Aylmer: member of the World Economic Forum’s Center for Cybersecurity. She’s
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Sean Aylmer: now the Global Security and Resilience Practice Leader for Kyndryl, the world’s largest provider of IT
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Sean Aylmer: infrastructure services, and a great supporter of this podcast. Kris Lovejoy,
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Sean Aylmer: welcome to Fear and Greed.
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Kris Lovejoy: Thank you so much. I’m really excited to be here.
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Sean Aylmer: Where do you start on this topic? There is so
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Sean Aylmer: much to talk about, but let’s start with AI. Just
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Sean Aylmer: how big is the cyber risk from AI?
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Kris Lovejoy: It’s emerging. I’d say we haven’t seen the best of
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Kris Lovejoy: generative AI being used in cyber attacks, just yet; however,
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Kris Lovejoy: we’re beginning to see the first indications of the fun
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Kris Lovejoy: to come.
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Sean Aylmer: Okay, so what is it that you are seeing?
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Kris Lovejoy: So for a few years now, we’ve been talking about
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Kris Lovejoy: this concept of omnichannel marketing, which is your ability to
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Kris Lovejoy: actually log in, talk to somebody and text at the
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Kris Lovejoy: same time. Well now imagine that attackers are using generative
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Kris Lovejoy: AI to create these very, very sophisticated, what we call
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Kris Lovejoy: phishing and social engineering campaigns. So once upon a time,
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Kris Lovejoy: you’d get a email and the email would say, I’m
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Kris Lovejoy: your boss and I want you to buy me a
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Kris Lovejoy: gift card. Well, the attacks have evolved now that you’re
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Kris Lovejoy: going to get a message on your phone, it’s going
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Kris Lovejoy: to sound exactly like your boss, and at the same
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Kris Lovejoy: time you’re going to get a text message, and at
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Kris Lovejoy: the same time you’re going to get an email. And oh,
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Kris Lovejoy: by the way, your colleagues at work are also going
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Kris Lovejoy: to get a phone call from your boss saying, “Hey,
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Kris Lovejoy: I just called Bill and I asked Bill to get
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Kris Lovejoy: me a gift card. Can you call him and remind
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Kris Lovejoy: him to get me a gift card?” So that’s what
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Kris Lovejoy: we call an omnichannel, social engineering or phishing attack, and
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Kris Lovejoy: these are becoming more common. And what we’re seeing is
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Kris Lovejoy: that unfortunately, it’s very, very hard to disregard, as an
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Kris Lovejoy: end user, these kinds of attacks, and so we’re seeing
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Kris Lovejoy: a lot of folks get caught up in them.
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Sean Aylmer: Okay, it’s complex. I’d imagine that we probably need to
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Sean Aylmer: rethink the way we approach security as a result of it.
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Kris Lovejoy: Oh, absolutely. I think, historically, the way to approach it
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Kris Lovejoy: is it’s like taking the model that we use for immunisations.
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Kris Lovejoy: It’s a herd mentality. You’re never going to get everybody
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Kris Lovejoy: to not click, but if you could limit the damage
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Kris Lovejoy: by limiting the number of people that double clicked, you’d
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Kris Lovejoy: get somewhere. Well, unfortunately, this particular attack makes phishing education,
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Kris Lovejoy: the do not double click education, not as useful as
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Kris Lovejoy: it has been before. And so we now we really
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Kris Lovejoy: do need to turn to technologies and the capabilities that
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Kris Lovejoy: keep dangerous forms of malware, like ransomware, from propagating inside
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Kris Lovejoy: our organisations or even affecting us as individual consumers.
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Sean Aylmer: Okay, so it’s less about educating end users, it’s more
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Sean Aylmer: about doing something at the source of the problem. Is
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Sean Aylmer: that what you’re saying?
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Kris Lovejoy: Yes. Well, it’s a combination of both. Education will never
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Kris Lovejoy: go away, so you have to be very wary of
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Kris Lovejoy: what you could double click on, but also recognise that
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Kris Lovejoy: there is a good probability that you’re going to be
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Kris Lovejoy: scammed and you’re going to fall for it. And so
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Kris Lovejoy: the controls in the background, like technology controls or identity
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Kris Lovejoy: theft protection, those really should be something you invest in.
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Sean Aylmer: Okay, yeah. Your title, Kris, is Security and Resilience Leader
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Sean Aylmer: at Kyndryl. It’s not a typical title, should we say,
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Sean Aylmer: is it all about becoming more resilient and responding the
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Sean Aylmer: right way attacks? Is that why that’s your job title?
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Kris Lovejoy: Yeah, absolutely. In fact, we’re seeing this change in the marketplace, generally,
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Kris Lovejoy: is that security has actually been largely about that guns, gates,
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Kris Lovejoy: and guards of we’re going to protect everything and everybody
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Kris Lovejoy: from the bad folks out there, and it just doesn’t
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Kris Lovejoy: work that way anymore. So the market is really changing
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Kris Lovejoy: and titles are changing with it. Now people are talking
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Kris Lovejoy: about this concept of business resilience, and the concept is,
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Kris Lovejoy: a lot of bad things can happen to disrupt or
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Kris Lovejoy: otherwise impact negatively our digitally enabled business, our digitally enabled lives.
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Kris Lovejoy: And so a resilience officer or a leader in this
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Kris Lovejoy: space is really about helping organisations in prioritising what to
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Kris Lovejoy: care about, because you can’t protect everything. So identifying what
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Kris Lovejoy: I should be investing in, where I should be investing,
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Kris Lovejoy: why I should be investing, and making sure that whether
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Kris Lovejoy: it is a fire, flood, natural disaster, a cyber attack,
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Kris Lovejoy: a hardware failure, software failure, network outage, whatever it can be,
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Kris Lovejoy: the job of somebody like me is really thinking through
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Kris Lovejoy: how do I protect my organisation from all of those
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Kris Lovejoy: bad things, and making sure that I’m putting my investments
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Kris Lovejoy: in the right place.
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Sean Aylmer: Is this something that is particularly… Is it prevalent across
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Sean Aylmer: all businesses or are there some particular types of organisations
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Sean Aylmer: at particular risk? And I suppose I’m coming back more
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Sean Aylmer: specifically to the AI related cyber attacks.
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Kris Lovejoy: It’s interesting because a lot of organisations, I talk to, say,
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Kris Lovejoy: “I’m too small, I’m not important enough.” But the reality
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Kris Lovejoy: is that the bad guys, the bad actors, tend to
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Kris Lovejoy: go after the smaller organisations who are less able to
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Kris Lovejoy: fund good security protections. They’re the weakest link. So while
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Kris Lovejoy: you would think that if I’m a major brand name bank,
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Kris Lovejoy: I’d be the target, it’s really not. It’s the supply
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Kris Lovejoy: chain partners. It’s the small technology organisations that are building
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Kris Lovejoy: and developing technology for that bigger organisation. It’s the organisation
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Kris Lovejoy: that is providing shipping services on behalf of a large
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Kris Lovejoy: packaged good manufacturer. It’s that kind of institution that’s the target.
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Kris Lovejoy: It might be the accounting firm or the law firm.
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Kris Lovejoy: It’s those that are act as the back door into
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Kris Lovejoy: the bigger organisation that I really worry about.
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Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Kris. We’ll be back in a minute.
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Sean Aylmer: I’m speaking to Kris Lovejoy, Global Security and Resilience Practice Leader for Kyndryl, a supporter of
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Sean Aylmer: this podcast. Okay, so that’s AI we’ve been focusing on there.
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Sean Aylmer: What are some of the other key security risks for
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Sean Aylmer: organisations going forward?
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Kris Lovejoy: If I look at this particular marketplace, one of the
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Kris Lovejoy: biggest issues, right now, is legacy technology. If you look at,
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Kris Lovejoy: on one pole, you’ve got India, and India has been
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Kris Lovejoy: engaged in really extraordinary amounts of innovation. On the other side,
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Kris Lovejoy: you have some nation states like Japan, where there is
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Kris Lovejoy: a concern about the risk associated with modernisation. I would
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Kris Lovejoy: put Australia in the middle. And so the problem with
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Kris Lovejoy: Australia is that during the COVID period, all the technology
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Kris Lovejoy: investment went into enabling new ways of working for clients,
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Kris Lovejoy: and new ways of communicating with employees. This was done
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Kris Lovejoy: on top of a very, very large real estate of
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Kris Lovejoy: legacy infrastructure and those modernisation programs that happened pre-COVID, it
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Kris Lovejoy: was really taking legacy infrastructure and putting it on cloud,
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Kris Lovejoy: not necessarily thinking about security complexity that is added by
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Kris Lovejoy: taking a legacy application, putting it on cloud. So the
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Kris Lovejoy: dynamic that we have here is, we have a lot
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Kris Lovejoy: of new stuff that was introduced during COVID, that wasn’t
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Kris Lovejoy: really properly secured because we didn’t think it was going
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Kris Lovejoy: to go away. Then we have a lot of legacy
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Kris Lovejoy: infrastructure that was not securable because it is so old.
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Kris Lovejoy: So at this point in time, we’ve got a situation
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Kris Lovejoy: where lots of legacy, lots of new stuff that hasn’t
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Kris Lovejoy: necessarily been secured, CISOs (Chief Information Security Officers) that are under a lot of
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Kris Lovejoy: budgetary pressure because hardware, software costs have been going up
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Kris Lovejoy: so much that the net impact of inflation, despite the
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Kris Lovejoy: fact that their budgets are going up, has been a
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Kris Lovejoy: net decrease in budget by about 1%. So it’s pretty
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Kris Lovejoy: tough situation for organisations in Australia to be in right now.
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Kris Lovejoy: And so, one of the recommendations that we have is
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Kris Lovejoy: going to be strange from a security person, but is
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Kris Lovejoy: not necessarily to spend the money in securing the infrastructure,
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Kris Lovejoy: but is really in modernising the right way so that
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Kris Lovejoy: security and resiliency can be achieved through the modernisation objectives.
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Sean Aylmer: It’s quite frightening what you’re talking about. Do you think
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Sean Aylmer: boards and management are, across this idea, that they just
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Sean Aylmer: have to do something particularly about their legacy systems which aren’t fit
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Sean Aylmer: for purpose anymore?
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Kris Lovejoy: I think in the public companies, those that are listed,
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Kris Lovejoy: the awareness is becoming a bit more acute, because particularly
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Kris Lovejoy: within the critical infrastructure, there has been some notifications that
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Kris Lovejoy: have gone out which suggest that the non- executive directors
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Kris Lovejoy: will be personally liable for failure to implement controls. In
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Kris Lovejoy: other jurisdictions, outside of Australia, it is becoming much better known
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Kris Lovejoy: because in the US and then through some of the
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Kris Lovejoy: legislation that’s coming out of Europe and the UK, the
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Kris Lovejoy: obligation for non-executive directors more broadly to attest to cybersecurity,
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Kris Lovejoy: as if they’re attesting to Sarbanes-Oxley. These are hitting the
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Kris Lovejoy: books as well. So I think that in pockets of
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Kris Lovejoy: the world, there is a better understanding. More generally in
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Kris Lovejoy: Australia though, I would say the answer is no. Boards
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Kris Lovejoy: of directors tend to think about it as somebody else’s problem,
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Kris Lovejoy: and if it is somebody’s problem, it’s the problem that
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Kris Lovejoy: the security person, that’s somewhere buried in the organisation, that has
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Kris Lovejoy: a cape and is opposed to protect the organization. So
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Kris Lovejoy: long way of answering, in some pockets, yes, but in
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Kris Lovejoy: the broader marketplace, no. Boards really don’t understand the issue,
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Kris Lovejoy: nor do they understand their governance responsibilities in the issue.
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Sean Aylmer: And I presume businesses aren’t really equipped to do it
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Sean Aylmer: either. Presumably, that’s what Kyndryl’s all about too, helping businesses
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Sean Aylmer: do this.
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Kris Lovejoy: Yeah, I think there’re any number of product companies out there. I think
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Kris Lovejoy: if you look at the marketplace today, I mentioned before,
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Kris Lovejoy: a lot of organisations will buy security because they’ve had
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Kris Lovejoy: a crisis or there’s a compliance requirement. And what that’s
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Kris Lovejoy: led to is this, the auditor comes in or the
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Kris Lovejoy: crisis manager comes in and says, “You need to buy
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Kris Lovejoy: this to fix the bleeding.” So people will spend as
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Kris Lovejoy: little money as they possibly can to solve that problem
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Kris Lovejoy: that’s staring them in the face. And what that’s led
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Kris Lovejoy: to is a big market, with lots of fragmented technologies,
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Kris Lovejoy: that don’t really fit together. So I think what’s really interesting,
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Kris Lovejoy: it’s happening now is the recession is actually had a
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Kris Lovejoy: positive side, or not recession, but some of the economic headwinds,
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Kris Lovejoy: has had a positive side for us. In so much,
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Kris Lovejoy: companies are saying, ” To solve the security problem, I need
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Kris Lovejoy: to simplify. I’ve got too many tools, I’ve got too
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Kris Lovejoy: much technology, I’ve got too many legacy systems.” So the
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Kris Lovejoy: time is for us to really take a step back,
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Kris Lovejoy: build an enterprise strategy and architecture for how we want
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Kris Lovejoy: to move forward, simplify the number of vendors, simplify the
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Kris Lovejoy: number of tools, and then make sure that we’re building
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Kris Lovejoy: for the future with security and resiliency in mind.
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Sean Aylmer: Kris, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.
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Kris Lovejoy: Thank you. I’m really thrilled to have been here.
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Sean Aylmer: That’s Kris Lovejoy, Global Security and Resilience Practice Leader for Kyndryl, a supporter of this podcast.
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Sean Aylmer: This is the Fear and Greed Business Interview. Join us
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Sean Aylmer: every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed,
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Sean Aylmer: Australia’s best business podcast. I’m Shauna Aylmer. Enjoy your day.